The Devil's Trick?

[POI]

1. If the Devil's objective is to deceive/coerce/trick/persuade humans away from God, and furthermore, has above human abilities; HOW do we know Jesus was not actually Satan in disguise?.?.?.?

2. Does God somewhat remove his freewill, so he cannot ultimately deceive millions into worshiping a false god? (i.e.) What we know as Christianity today.

3. If God does restrict what the devil can do, then why still allow what the devil can do to humans?

Maybe professed Christians have a one way ticket to hell, which makes the devil's job easier. 2/5's of the world's population worship a false god, which breaks the first commandment. The devil's work is already done for him. And almost another 2/6's are also done, in the way of believing in Muhammad. And so on....

[POI]

I think you have too much baseless arguments. If you think you know what Satan wants, how do you know that? If you know a scripture that tells it, please show it.

Um, I thought it was {common Christian knowledge} that he wants to deceive us? No?

" 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

Hence, if Satan wants to trick us, seems logical to hatch a plan; to get many to follow the wrong god(s). He can then set back and relax, as all believers of all the circulating religions, and their prospective believers, are breaking the first commandment perpetually.

Reason why I think Jesus is not a false prophet is that I see things going as Jesus said.

Interesting. I don't...

What exactly do you see as "going as Jesus said", which solidifies it for you?

If Jesus is an impostor, what was he imposing?

I thought we had already been over this? Jesus (aka Satan), is getting as many to worship him, to secure a one way ticket to hell.

I know I am not braking the first commandment because I am not keeping other someone else than Bible God as my God.

If it should tun out that you are worshiping a false deity, then you certainly are...

[1213]

...
" 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will."

Hence, if Satan wants to trick us, seems logical to hatch a plan; to get many to follow the wrong god(s). He can then set back and relax, as all believers of all the circulating religions, and their prospective believers, are breaking the first commandment perpetually...

That is not said in the Bible, therefore I don’t see any reason to accept that claim.

What exactly do you see as "going as Jesus said", which solidifies it for you?

Everything Jesus said, that should have happened at this point.

I thought we had already been over this? Jesus (aka Satan), is getting as many to worship him, to secure a one way ticket to hell.

How is Jesus getting people to worship him? Jesus said that there is only one God that is greater than Him. Jesus is in no way acting like Satan.

[POI]

What exactly do you see as "going as Jesus said", which solidifies it for you?

Everything Jesus said, that should have happened at this point.

Well, we know His father was wrong (Ezekiel 26), for starters. Maybe Jesus will be correct? But wait, is He (1 Thessalonians 4)?

Is Jesus EVER coming back? I mean, it's one thing to perpetually say, "Oh, you wait, He certainly will someday." --- 2K years and counting... However, ANYONE can say that about anyone.

And when you read ancient prophecy, it looks to be no more or less ambiguous, and open to wide interpretation, versus the claims of Nostradomus - (which is deemed to be ~50% correct in his predictions by believers).

I thought we had already been over this? Jesus (aka Satan), is getting as many to worship him, to secure a one way ticket to hell.

How is Jesus getting people to worship him? Jesus said that there is only one God that is greater than Him. Jesus is in no way acting like Satan.

He came to earth, performed magic, and told people He is the gateway to heaven.

And HOW do you KNOW how Satan would act?.?.?.?.?.?.?????????????

[Purple Knight]

Do you see a difference between Jesus pretending to be Lucifer, than if it were Lucifer pretending to be Jesus?

No.

For example, if it turned out that Jesus was pretending to be Lucifer, would you feel safer than if it were the other way around?

There's only one way to be safe in this universe and that's by avoiding moral error. Now, if whosoever is actually deciding the rules for morality is not interested in being fair, I can't avoid error. I call this the "evil god scenario" not because God would actually count as evil, but because someone punishing me for what he gives me no way to avoid certainly seems evil, from my perspective.

The pointed answer to your question is that Satan is the Deceiver, so whosoever is deceiving is Satan.

People often object to racism only meaning when white people do it. I tell them to get over it because that's what it means and use another word. And I catch a lot of flak when they do that - when they want to instead discuss bias - and others simply try to shut down the discussion, seemingly on the basis that there should be no such words.

Obviously some words like regicide and racism are contextual; it matters who the act is done by, done to, or something else other than the act itself. Even murder is contextual because it relies on not being committed in self-defence.

Now, just because the word for evil is contextual, and it does matter who commits an act, does that mean that NCE - Non-Contextual-Evil - is a concept we're prohibited from talking about? NCE would simply be an act that is wrong no matter who does it. Even if there is no such act, we can still discuss the concept. Now, if we're talking about who is actually evil, it depends. But if we're talking about who is NCE, it doesn't depend, so even if there are no NCE acts, we can still make this judgment. Evil is a useless concept. We can't know. NCE is a useful concept.

So if we're supposed to judge actual evil, it relies on us not being deceived, and if we are deceived, we're just screwed.

But if we're supposed to judge NCE, that's a fair ask, and we don't have to worry about whose name is what. See a good act? Imitate it. See an NCE act? Definitely don't imitate it. And nobody cares or should care if Lucifer likes to cosplay in a linen toga. If what the guy said is right, then it's right, and if not, then it's wrong.

That is what the context of my last post was pointing to. Is the process of elimination you use to determine such, a reliable one? We cannot know, for you have not explained what the exact basis for that process which you use, is.

Sure.

Point one assumption: God is fair. If he lays a trap, there must be a way out that he has given us. I can assume this because it's a pointless discussion if it's not true; we're just going to be punished no matter what.

Point two: If we're supposed to reject the same exact teaching from Lucifer but accept it from the Son of God, we're just screwed if we're being lied to.

Point three: As per point one, we can't just be screwed. There must be a way out. Therefore, we aren't being asked to judge whether Jesus was really Lucifer cosplaying in a linen toga (which we can't do), but whether the teachings of Jesus were admirable.

Point four, question: Could a fair God set such a trap? Would a fair God let Lucifer set such a trap? Yes, because we have what we need to avoid the trap. We can reject teachings that are wrong and accept those that are right, regardless of who they come from.

Therefore, if God is fair, it must be the answer to assess acts on their merits alone, not by the merits of who is doing the act, because we know Lucifer is allowed to deceive.

As for me, I tend to think that it would be a case of either/or, the results would not be malevolent re humans. This is because, 'whoever' is doing the pretending, must be benevolent in that neither roles could be played out by an actual malevolent being.

A malevolent being could certainly dress up in a linen toga, say he was the Son of God, spread meanness and nastiness, and then get off that so many people followed those teachings, thinking that it mattered who was teaching them. If this is true he's fooled an awful lot of people.

Outside of the occasional human being acting out in the material world, what evidence do we have that malevolent beings actually exist in the immaterial world theists believe exists? What actual evidence do we have that show the claims that immaterial beings [spirits] are malevolent?

We have little evidence of any such beings, so the only assumptions we could make about them are that they mirror the sentient beings we know, which are us.

[Purple Knight]

Well, does God restrict Lucifer's freewill to deceive humans in this specific manor? If not, then maybe He is not truly "fair" and "just" at all? If He does restrict Lucifer's freewill in this capacity, then why not just contain him entirely; like He claims He's going to later any ways?

If (2) is true, why not just contain Satan entirely? He is already messing with his freewill to do what he wants, in part.

Perhaps God wants the trap to be set because he's given people a way out.

How would you avoid the trap?

The only way there can be a way out: I judge on the teachings, not who is teaching them. Have you ever thought that maybe that's the test? To say that no, this is wrong, this is cruel, I'm not going for it?

[William]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #45]

Outside of the occasional human being acting out in the material world, what evidence do we have that malevolent beings actually exist in the immaterial world theists believe exists? What actual evidence do we have that show the claims that immaterial beings [spirits] are malevolent?

We have little evidence of any such beings, so the only assumptions we could make about them are that they mirror the sentient beings we know, which are us.

Okay so I will put that through your sorting process and see what I can make of it.

♥ IF the premise is "The Creator is Fair, therefore IF The Creator lays a Trap, there must be a way out that he has given us", why would I not assume that Eternal Spirits [to give them an overall name] do not themselves 'mirror' The Creator, and they too are just as fair?
Why would I mirror them off of " the sentient beings we know, which are us"? What is the rational behind doing so?

♥ IF we're supposed to reject the same exact teaching from Lucifer but accept it from Jesus, why assume we are just screwed IF we're being lied to, when there may be no such malevolent motivation behind the deception?
Thus, could there be a legitimate reason for the deception, such as it became necessary in relation to the way human belief systems developed through human use of the 'good/evil' filters they invented as a means of seeing the world and responding to that world?

♥ There must be a way out. Therefore, we aren't being asked to judge whether Jesus was really Lucifer cosplaying in a linen toga (which we can't do), but whether the teachings of Jesus were admirable.
Are we to determine that the teachings of Jesus were not admirable, IF they were delivered through deception? If not, then could that be 'the way out'?

♥ Could a fair God set such a trap? Would a fair God let Lucifer set such a trap? Yes, because we have what we need to avoid the trap. We can reject teachings that are wrong and accept those that are right, regardless of who they come from.
And regardless of how they were presented? We could reject being taught to view the world through the 'good and evil filter', as one possible rational answer.

Therefore, if God is fair, it must be the answer to assess acts on their merits alone, not by the merits of who is doing the act, because we know Lucifer is allowed to deceive.

Could it be then, that just as Satan is allowed to accuse, we can ignore both types of tactic in order to find the way out of the trap?

Should we ask our self, "Is my accepting accusation and deception as "true' when it is not, the very thing which is preventing me from realizing the way out of the trap?"

How is accusation and deception manifested in this world, but through the filters of 'good' and 'evil' through which we view the material world, and even the [assumed] immaterial world of spirits which we mirror our own perception upon [projection] which manifest for us Jesus and Lucifer as opposing each other, as we have imagined that they are?

Thus, could it be we have identified The Trap and now begin work on deactivating it, that the exit will be revealed?

[Purple Knight]

♥ IF the premise is "The Creator is Fair, therefore IF The Creator lays a Trap, there must be a way out that he has given us", why would I not assume that Eternal Spirits [to give them an overall name] do not themselves 'mirror' The Creator, and they too are just as fair?
Why would I mirror them off of " the sentient beings we know, which are us"? What is the rational behind doing so?

You're perfectly free to and that might be the answer. However, if there's a malicious God that is not fair, it's just going to punish us for whatever it wants to punish us for and we can't get out of it. We can only address the scenario where God is fair so we know there is a way out of punishment.

IF we're supposed to reject the same exact teaching from Lucifer but accept it from Jesus, why assume we are just screwed IF we're being lied to, when there may be no such malevolent motivation behind the deception?
Thus, could there be a legitimate reason for the deception, such as it became necessary in relation to the way human belief systems developed through human use of the 'good/evil' filters they invented as a means of seeing the world and responding to that world?

If we're being deceived for our own good, and seeing through the deception would hurt our chances of avoiding punishment, I consider this a subset of the unfair God scenario. Or rather, that scenario is a subset of this, and the grander theme is that we can't do anything about it so we shouldn't try.

Are we to determine that the teachings of Jesus were not admirable, IF they were delivered through deception?

Maybe if they're not admirable they're not admirable. Letting bullies beat you up because turning the other cheek is more moral is not something that generally passes the smell test. And forgiving everyone for absolutely everything requires serious mental gymnastics to be workable, such as completely divorcing whether or not you have forgiven someone from how you treat them in the future.

And regardless of how they were presented? We could reject being taught to view the world through the 'good and evil filter', as one possible rational answer.

Perhaps.

Therefore, if God is fair, it must be the answer to assess acts on their merits alone, not by the merits of who is doing the act, because we know Lucifer is allowed to deceive.

Could it be then, that just as Satan is allowed to accuse, we can ignore both types of tactic in order to find the way out of the trap?

Should we ask our self, "Is my accepting accusation and deception as "true' when it is not, the very thing which is preventing me from realizing the way out of the trap?"

At this point, the "what if we are deceived" is the topic of the thread. If we're not, then good, we're not. So much the better. But I should point out that assessing acts and not the people doing them still works, at least, in that it's consistent.

How is accusation and deception manifested in this world, but through the filters of 'good' and 'evil' through which we view the material world, and even the [assumed] immaterial world of spirits which we mirror our own perception upon [projection] which manifest for us Jesus and Lucifer as opposing each other, as we have imagined that they are?

Thus, could it be we have identified The Trap and now begin work on deactivating it, that the exit will be revealed?

If the exit is just to see everything as everything, and not worry about being deceived, or about good and evil, that's great, anyone can win. The murderer wins too; he can kill as much as he wants and it's not evil because he's discarded that label. But the people lose who think the murderer was evil; they held onto their primitive worldview of good and evil and got it wrong. That does seem to be a fair representation of the Christian universe, where all acts are fine except to say not all acts are fine. Saying not all acts are fine is a totally evil act.

[POI]

Well, does God restrict Lucifer's freewill to deceive humans in this specific manor? If not, then maybe He is not truly "fair" and "just" at all? If He does restrict Lucifer's freewill in this capacity, then why not just contain him entirely; like He claims He's going to later any ways?

If (2) is true, why not just contain Satan entirely? He is already messing with his freewill to do what he wants, in part.

Perhaps God wants the trap to be set because he's given people a way out.

How would you avoid the trap?

The only way there can be a way out: I judge on the teachings, not who is teaching them. Have you ever thought that maybe that's the test? To say that no, this is wrong, this is cruel, I'm not going for it?

It wouldn't give people a way out. If Lucifer does not have his freewill restricted, he could mimic a false prophet -- to all human satisfaction. Remember, all humans are fallible. So either:

A: God does not restrict his freewill, for which he can successfully trick everyone; by performing perceived good acts and magic.
B: God restricts his freewill, so he cannot impersonate Jesus. But then, why limit his freewill only there???

I see no third option in this scenario... Do you?

Which one would you like to explore?

[William]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #48]

♥ IF the premise is "The Creator is Fair, therefore IF The Creator lays a Trap, there must be a way out that he has given us", why would I not assume that Eternal Spirits [to give them an overall name] do not themselves 'mirror' The Creator, and they too are just as fair?
Why would I mirror them off of " the sentient beings we know, which are us"? What is the rational behind doing so?

[Crickets Chirping]

♥ IF we're supposed to reject the same exact teaching from Lucifer but accept it from Jesus, why assume we are just screwed IF we're being lied to, when there may be no such malevolent motivation behind the deception?
Thus, could there be a legitimate reason for the deception, such as it became necessary in relation to the way human belief systems developed through human use of the 'good/evil' filters they invented as a means of seeing the world and responding to that world?

If we're being deceived for our own good, and seeing through the deception would hurt our chances of avoiding punishment, I consider this a subset of the unfair God scenario. Or rather, that scenario is a subset of this, and the grander theme is that we can't do anything about it so we shouldn't try.

If the point in seeing through the deception is the very thing which identifies the trap and the subsequent manner in which one then lives ones life in that knowledge, is what deactivates it and allows one to realize the way out,
then why would you consider this a subset/superset of the working of an unfair Creator?

Seeing through the deception = No longer requiring going through any punishment scenario.

♥ IF we're supposed to reject the same exact teaching from Lucifer but accept it from Jesus, why assume we are just screwed IF we're being lied to, when there may be no such malevolent motivation behind the deception?
Thus, could there be a legitimate reason for the deception, such as it became necessary in relation to the way human belief systems developed through human use of the 'good/evil' filters they invented as a means of seeing the world and responding to that world?

Maybe if they're not admirable they're not admirable. Letting bullies beat you up because turning the other cheek is more moral is not something that generally passes the smell test. And forgiving everyone for absolutely everything requires serious mental gymnastics to be workable, such as completely divorcing whether or not you have forgiven someone from how you treat them in the future.

Thus, part of the process of deactivating said trap is to develop methods in which to know the difference. Obviously The Fair Creator premise is permitting the individual to determine what is and is not admirable, and such may well be achievable without the G&E Filter.

♥ There must be a way out. Therefore, we aren't being asked to judge whether Jesus was really Lucifer cosplaying in a linen toga (which we can't do), but whether the teachings of Jesus were admirable.
Are we to determine that the teachings of Jesus were not admirable, IF they were delivered through deception? If not, then could that be 'the way out'?

[Crickets Chirping]

♥ Could a fair God set such a trap? Would a fair God let Lucifer set such a trap? Yes, because we have what we need to avoid the trap. We can reject teachings that are wrong and accept those that are right, regardless of who they come from.
And regardless of how they were presented? We could reject being taught to view the world through the 'good and evil filter', as one possible rational answer.

Perhaps.

Well have a think about it in that light and get back to me with your thoughts, if you will.

Therefore, if God is fair, it must be the answer to assess acts on their merits alone, not by the merits of who is doing the act, because we know Lucifer is allowed to deceive.

Could it be then, that just as Satan is allowed to accuse, we can ignore both types of tactic in order to find the way out of the trap?

Should we ask our self, "Is my accepting accusation and deception as "true' when it is not, the very thing which is preventing me from realizing the way out of the trap?"

At this point, the "what if we are deceived" is the topic of the thread. If we're not, then good, we're not. So much the better. But I should point out that assessing acts and not the people doing them still works, at least, in that it's consistent.

You have yet to think on the idea re dropping the G&E Filters, so it is possible that ones "assessing acts" will not be based in whether said acts are consigned to those positions anyway.
One example already given is consigning possible deception [re thread topic] to be either 'good' or 'evil'. It may well be neither, and therefore should not be consigned as either 'good' or 'evil' to begin with.

How is accusation and deception manifested in this world, but through the filters of 'good' and 'evil' through which we view the material world, and even the [assumed] immaterial world of spirits which we mirror our own perception upon [projection] which manifest for us Jesus and Lucifer as opposing each other, as we have imagined that they are?

Thus, could it be we have identified The Trap and now begin work on deactivating it, that the exit will be revealed?

If the exit is just to see everything as everything, and not worry about being deceived, or about good and evil, that's great, anyone can win. The murderer wins too; he can kill as much as he wants and it's not evil because he's discarded that label.

There would be more involved than simply just discarding the label, considering the premise.

But the people lose who think the murderer was evil; they held onto their primitive worldview of good and evil and got it wrong. That does seem to be a fair representation of the Christian universe, where all acts are fine except to say not all acts are fine.

What if the Next Phase operates in such a manner that whatever we each believe and what our core attitude really is, determines the outcome of our ongoing experience and furthermore, we are the ones who create that outcome [whether we realize that or not] and this were a rational way for a fair Creator [premise] to allow things to unfold?

Saying not all acts are fine is a totally evil act.

This is a product of the G&E Filter. Sorting 'acts' into either one of the two categories. A fair Creator would understand it is not 'either/or' [black or white] but that there is indeed a vast 'grey area' - perhaps oft overlooked, but existing nonetheless.

[1213]

Well, we know His father was wrong (Ezekiel 26), for starters. Maybe Jesus will be correct? But wait, is He (1 Thessalonians 4)?

Sorry, could you please explain what you mean? God has not been wrong.

Is Jesus EVER coming back..

I believe so. But, as Jesus said: no one knows of that day and hour, not even the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt. 24:36

He came to earth, performed magic, and told people He is the gateway to heaven.

You seem to have some different Bible than I have.

And HOW do you KNOW how Satan would act?.?.?.?.?.?.?????????????

I know only what the Bible tells about him. And according to it:

The great dragon was thrown down, the old serpent, he who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now is come the salvation, the power, and the Kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ; for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
Revelation 12:9-10