#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[2timothy316]

Adding verse 9 doesn't change verse 10 speak for, "the afterlife itself is not discussed and is not in view" dogma.

No, it makes it clear and reinforces it, which is the point. Your denial is the problem.

My denial of your dogma is your problem, not mine.

Ecc 9:9, 10 DOES discuss what happens in the afterlife.

No, life under the sun" is clearly referred to twice in verse 9, and it sets up verse 10 to describes what will not be present -- the experiences of this life (under the sun) -- in the afterlife, because at that point, they will no longer be in this life (under the sun). Like I said, it's not rocket science.

Do you know where a person is when they are not under the sun? "He returns to the ground", under the dirt. That's not rocket science.

The very place you're trying to say people know something the Bible clearly says the where the dead people are, they don't reason, they don't think, they don't know anything.

No, it says they don't reason, think, or know anything in the same manner as those still living do, because they are no longer living. It does not indicate the lack of ability to reason, think, or know anything at all in the afterlife. If it did, that would actually render Jesus's parable in Luke 16 null and void and thus useless, which surely is not the case.

Luke 16 is a parable. Matthew 13:34 says that Jesus would not speak to people without an illustration or parable. There is nothing in the scriptures that says Solomon spoke in parable about when a person dies.

So Luke 16 is not useless. It has teaching value that once a person is in the grave it's too late to change who we were. It also shows that death indeed comes for us all, rich and poor.

[2timothy316]

Look at how many times you want me to look at what YOU say and want me to take YOUR advice.

I just want you to understand, to hear Him rightly, and believe the Lord. But, as the old country song goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Wow! The hubris in this statement is just wow! As if my understanding depends on you. It most certainly doesn't. I don't need you so I can 'hear him rightly'. Seriously, who do you think you are?

The Bible and what it plainly says without YOUR commentary is enough for me.

Me, too. Fair enough.

Grace and peace to you.

The thing is I have added no commentary. You have added the 'in this life' dogma. This is completely added by you. There is no scripture that explains 'in this life' as separate from some sort of afterlife as you have done. This is COMPLETELY YOUR DOGMA and not found anywhere in the scriptures. What tells you to separate two kinds of existence in Ecc? It's the rose colored glasses of a man-made doctrine of an eternal soul.

[PinSeeker]

My denial of your dogma is your problem, not mine.

I have no problem whatsoever with anything you do or don't do.

Do you know where a person is when they are not under the sun? "He returns to the ground", under the dirt. That's not rocket science.

That's just the body. The Bible is very clear throughout that one's being is not merely the body.

Luke 16 is a parable.

That doesn't make it any less instructive, which is exactly why Jesus offered it.

Matthew 13:34 says that Jesus would not speak to people without an illustration or parable.

Right, because that was the best way to instruct folks on and illustrate the Kingdom of God.

There is nothing in the scriptures that says Solomon spoke in parable about when a person dies.

Soloman imparted wisdom. That's why his book is classified with the other "Books of Wisdom" in the Bible.

So Luke 16 is not useless. It has teaching value that once a person is in the grave it's too late to change who we were. It also shows that death indeed comes for us all, rich and poor.

Agreed. It also shows that the experience of the unrepentant in the afterlife is to be avoided at all costs.

As if my understanding depends on you. It most certainly doesn't.

Certainly it does not. I'm as glad of that as you are, if not more so.

I don't need you so I can 'hear him rightly'.

Actually, we all need each other. That's why God gave us each other. Faith comes by hearing, right? So God, the Giver of faith, uses us to impart this gift. Or not; God does what He does.

Seriously, who do you think you are?

Hopefully, an instrument of His hand.

The thing is I have added no commentary.

Okay, I'll give you that (although you have), but the issues are really what you misunderstand and what you leave out, either purposely nor not.

You have added the 'in this life' dogma. This is completely added by you.

Nope. But, I'm okay with you thinking that, erroneous as it is. Ecclesiastes speaks, throughout, only of life under the sun, and we know there's more than that... for everyone.

There is no scripture that explains 'in this life' as separate from some sort of afterlife as you have done. This is COMPLETELY YOUR DOGMA and not found anywhere in the scriptures.

I understand your opinion well, and you are more than welcome to it.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

Do you know where a person is when they are not under the sun? "He returns to the ground", under the dirt. That's not rocket science.

That's just the body. The Bible is very clear throughout that one's being is not merely the body.

Another addition to Ecc that is not there. I guess you can't stop can you?


"For he well knows how we are formed, Remembering that we are dust." - Ps 103

"And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." - Gen 2:7 ASV

"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." - Ecc 3:18-20

"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” - Gen 3:19.

"Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it." - Ecc !2:7


What I read is that mankind is dust and God's breath of life. We came from dust and we go back to being dust and the breath of life goes back to God.

Now, let's us all watch as you take something clear and turn it muddy with a whole bunch of pinseeker dogma additions. Go ahead and show us an example of how those rose colored glass work and how a person who is an instrument of their own hand operates.

[2timothy316]

Seriously, who do you think you are?

Hopefully, an instrument of His hand.

Wow! Again the hubris of your statements are shocking.

Me personally, I want to be a product of His hand. (Romans 9:19-21)
Certainly not your hand.

[2timothy316]

The thing is I have added no commentary.

Okay, I'll give you that (although you have), but the issues are really what you misunderstand and what you leave out, either purposely nor not.

Yeah, I leave out your dogma. Simple.

[PinSeeker]

The Bible is very clear throughout that one's being is not merely the body.

Another addition to Ecc that is not there. I guess you can't stop can you?

Who said that was part of Ecclesiastes? Not me, certainly, but it is a Biblical truth.

Hopefully, an instrument of His hand.

Wow! Again the hubris of your statements are shocking.

No "hubris" whatsoever; I would hope you would aspire to the same. You're a Jehovah's Witness, right? The very name itself speaks of your desire (hopefully) to be a witness of and for God/Jehovah, right? I think we both have a really strong desire to be called according to His purpose (Romans 8). God told Ananias that Paul, then still Saul of Tarsus, that Saul was a chosen instrument of His (Acts 9). In the same way, all Christians should know that they are chosen instruments of God. And Paul Himself goes on to tell us that we are God's workmanship -- instruments, as it were, of God's hand -- created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2).

Me personally, I want to be a product of His hand. (Romans 9:19-21)

Well, great! But you are a product of His hand -- and I am -- because He made us. And while that's a good point to make, it's kind of beside the point at hand. Pay close attention to verse 21, there, though, because there, it says He made some for honorable use (His use) and some for dishonorable use (again, His use). So... we are His instruments.

Yeah, I leave out your dogma. Simple.

Fair enough, but regardless what you call it/them, I would advise not ignoring Biblical truths. You know, 2timothy316, remember 2nd Timothy 3:16...

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

Do you know where a person is when they are not under the sun? "He returns to the ground", under the dirt. That's not rocket science.

That's just the body. The Bible is very clear throughout that one's being is not merely the body.

Yes, the Bible states clearly that there are two type of bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Which one is mankind?

[PinSeeker]

There is a natural body , and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44) Which one is mankind?

For some of us, hopefully you included, even in this life here under the sun, the answer is a resounding yes. You probably won't get that, but that's okay.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

[2timothy316]

Do you know where a person is when they are not under the sun? "He returns to the ground", under the dirt. That's not rocket science.

That's just the body. The Bible is very clear throughout that one's being is not merely the body.

Yes, the Bible states clearly that there are two type of bodies:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Which one is mankind?

Here is 1 Cor 15:44 in context. (I know pinseeker is a fan of a scripture in context)
Let's all read it carefully.

"Not all flesh is the same flesh, but there is one of mankind, there is another flesh of cattle, another flesh of birds, and another of fish. And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory. So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven." - 1 Cor 15:39-47

What do we read here? I'm not going to add any commentary. I'm going to let this scripture set just like it is.