#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[onewithhim]

How do you torment the dead?

Nobody torments anybody. But the eternally dead do experience torment.

Grace and peace to you.

If they're dead they don't experience anything. "The dead are conscious of nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The only thing the dead experience is being dead, where they have no consciousness. Therefore, you can't say that they really experience it. The dead are "tormented" only in the sense that they are no longer able to do anything, though they aren't conscious of it. A "tormentor" or jailer just kept a person from being able to function as that one normally did. That was torment enough. The Devil and everyone who follows him will be unable to do anything, and whether or not they are cognizant of it, they are tormented because of the restriction on their movements---eternally.

[Wootah]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #131]

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

vs

Genesis 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and tend it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [o]eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Who do I trust myth-one or God in defining death?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #131]

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

vs

Genesis 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and tend it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [o]eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Who do I trust myth-one or God in defining death?

Which death is God defining in Genesis 2, Wootah?

In what way did He define it?

Does He not define a different death as well, in Genesis 3?

In what way did He define that death?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #131]

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

vs

Genesis 2:15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate it and tend it. 16 The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [o]eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Who do I trust myth-one or God in defining death?

Which death is God defining in Genesis 2, Wootah?

In what way did He define it?

Does He not define a different death as well, in Genesis 3?

In what way did He define that death?

God and myth-one.com use the same definition of death.

The only true death which can be identified by the definition of death below is the second death:

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

The second death is the only death defined by this definition as it is the only permanent cessation of all the vital functions of man.

As all man will be made alive after their first "death", the first death does not satisfy the definition above as it is not permanent:

For as in Adam all die (the first "death"), even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

Therefore, the first death is often referred to as sleep, slumber, and death -- Rest in Peace.

The second death applies only to those whose names are not written in the Book of Life after being judged.

=============================================

Since the second death occurs after judgment, every death of any human thus far has been their "first" death.

Adam lived to be 130 years of age, and now rests awaiting his resurrection at the second resurrection for mankind after the Millennium. 130 years is less than a 1,000 year "God day."

So Adam did "die" within a day from eating of the forbidden fruit as God said he would.

[2timothy316]

The Scriptures do in fact confirm that the dead know not any thing, but if you actually put it in context -- Ecclesiastes 9 and Ecclesiastes as a whole, as we are talking about Ecclesiastes 9:5 (yet again) -- then you quickly realize (or at least some do) that they are gone from this world, this life, "life under the sun," and they know nothing of this life anymore. But they are not non-existing...

How can that work?

If you think about it, I think you can figure it out. But, maybe not. God said it; it is what it is.

I figured it out!

God said: "the dead know not any thing."

PinSeeker said: "the dead know not any thing of this life."

I see how it works -- You added the words "of this life."

Please be aware of the following warnings:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18)

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

Wait wait wait a minute!

Are eternal torment fanatics saying that the people that are tormented eternally don't remember their former life as a human?! If they can't remember anything of 'this life' does that mean that they don't even remember their former sins and thus don't know why they are being tormented?! That's the worst interpretation of that scripture I've ever heard! This inferior tormenting god sounds worse and worse the more I hear about them. Apparently, people with no memory of their past are tormented for all eternity. Might as well eternally torment babies while they are at it, they have no memory of a past life either. SMH

[myth-one.com]

The Scriptures do in fact confirm that the dead know not any thing, but if you actually put it in context -- Ecclesiastes 9 and Ecclesiastes as a whole, as we are talking about Ecclesiastes 9:5 (yet again) -- then you quickly realize (or at least some do) that they are gone from this world, this life, "life under the sun," and they know nothing of this life anymore. But they are not non-existing...

How can that work?

If you think about it, I think you can figure it out. But, maybe not. God said it; it is what it is.

I figured it out!

God said: "the dead know not any thing."

PinSeeker said: "the dead know not any thing of this life."

I see how it works -- You added the words "of this life."

Please be aware of the following warnings:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18)

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

Wait wait wait a minute!

Are eternal torment fanatics saying that the people that are tormented eternally don't remember their former life as a human?! If they can't remember anything of 'this life' does that mean that they don't even remember their former sins and thus don't know why they are being tormented?! That's the worst interpretation of that scripture I've ever heard! This inferior tormenting god sounds worse and worse the more I hear about them. Apparently, people with no memory of their past are tormented for all eternity. Might as well eternally torment babies while they are at it, they have no memory of a past life either. SMH

I've waited three minutes, just in case you meant wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

During that time I reviewed what PinSeeker claimed, and I agree that he claims "people with no memory of their past are tormented for all eternity."

In the past, he has repeatedly stated this is done because "God's justice must be satisfied."

While I agree that God must be "just and true," I find PinSeeker's interpretation unjustified.

If someone dumb as me finds it unjust, seems like God would also.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #134]

I don't get your reference to genesis 3.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #133]

I don't get your reference to genesis 3.

That was to verse 19.

[otseng]

Are eternal torment fanatics

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[2timothy316]

The Scriptures do in fact confirm that the dead know not any thing, but if you actually put it in context -- Ecclesiastes 9 and Ecclesiastes as a whole, as we are talking about Ecclesiastes 9:5 (yet again) -- then you quickly realize (or at least some do) that they are gone from this world, this life, "life under the sun," and they know nothing of this life anymore. But they are not non-existing...

How can that work?

If you think about it, I think you can figure it out. But, maybe not. God said it; it is what it is.

I figured it out!

God said: "the dead know not any thing."

PinSeeker said: "the dead know not any thing of this life."

I see how it works -- You added the words "of this life."

Please be aware of the following warnings:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: (Revelation 22:18)

Knowing this first, that no prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (II Peter 1:20)

Wait wait wait a minute!

Are eternal torment fanatics saying that the people that are tormented eternally don't remember their former life as a human?! If they can't remember anything of 'this life' does that mean that they don't even remember their former sins and thus don't know why they are being tormented?! That's the worst interpretation of that scripture I've ever heard! This inferior tormenting god sounds worse and worse the more I hear about them. Apparently, people with no memory of their past are tormented for all eternity. Might as well eternally torment babies while they are at it, they have no memory of a past life either. SMH

I've waited three minutes, just in case you meant wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

During that time I reviewed what PinSeeker claimed, and I agree that he claims "people with no memory of their past are tormented for all eternity."

In the past, he has repeatedly stated this is done because "God's justice must be satisfied."

While I agree that God must be "just and true," I find PinSeeker's interpretation unjustified.

If someone dumb as me finds it unjust, seems like God would also.

And to a rational person it would seem unjust, unless a person just wants to be a zealot about the eternal torment teaching. It is the only logical conclusion that can be made. The doctrine only survives because its kept alive by zealots of the doctrine, because both scripturally and morally the eternal torment doctrine isn't harmonious with the Bible. The eternal torment doctrine is a 'strongly entrenched thing' (2 Cor 10:4,5) that if can't be overturned by reasoning will never be overturned if the person holding on to the doctrine is unreasonable. Though it is what can happen when we stop being reasonable and stop perceiving what the will of God truly is. Ephesians 5:15-17 says, "So keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons, making the best use of your time, because the days are wicked. On this account stop being unreasonable, but keep perceiving what the will of God is."

The will of God is certainly NOT to punish a person who doesn't even know what he is being punished for, that's an insane doctrine.