Predestination Theology

[William]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

[PinSeeker]

We CAN exist into eternity future, but that is not automatic.

Yes it is, because God made us in His image. I mean I'm not sure I'd say "automatic," but, well, a given.

I was going to say that it is not a given... but eternal life is given - it just is not given to everyone. So I changed it to automatic.

1. Okay, well, it is a given, because, as I said, God created each of us in His image.

2. I agree with you that it is not given to everyone, but that has never really been part of this discussion and I'm not sure why you bring that up now, as I don't think there's ever been any disagreement on that from anyone.

That is a gift (and does require eating from the Tree of Life).

No, eternal life is a gift ("...the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" [Romans 6:23]), and that does require having access to the tree of Life, which we believers will all have when Christ comes back, ushering in eternity and the kingdom in its fullness. Eternal life and eternal existence are two different things, and both are realities. Existence in eternity will be a reality for all, but eternal life will only be experienced by God's elect.

Eternal life is from God (through His Son).

Well, sure. From the Father, in the Son. And not all are and/or will be in the Son, though they are eligible. See points 1 and 2 above.

Eternal existence is a doctrine of men, an interpretation of various things, but never taught by Christ and no distinction is made between eternal life and eternal existence.

Okay, and yet again (for the umpteenth time), not the case at all. Nowhere in the Bible is non-existence even mentioned -- by Christ directly or in any other passage anywhere in the Bible -- and, in all the passages discussed regarding this subject (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23, John 5:25-29, Revelation 20:11-15, and others). So two points (again):

1. Eternal existence is not really a "doctrine" at all. Since non-existence is not supported in scripture at all -- and this is true regarding the temporal (the present age, in this life) as well as the eternal (the age to come) -- it's opposite, existence, is an incontrovertible fact.

2. In exactly the same way as you assert, I will assert just as adamantly that non-existence in eternity is a "doctrine of men," having never been taught by Christ... or any other passage in Scripture for that matter... and, as I said above, Christ taught/showed the direct opposite of non-existence.

Equating existence and death is something man has done.

Nobody is doing that... at least no one I know of. But some erroneously equate death and non-existence, and that's the problem; clearly, that is not the case.[/quote]

And there will be no more sin, no more suffering, every tear will be wiped from our eyes, and all sorrow and sighing will flee away. Forever.

If there are humans who exist in an eternal state of despair and suffering, weeping, sorrow, then that promise (that I bolded in your post) will never come true.

No, because that promise is only for those redeemed by Christ and residing in the new heaven and new earth with Him.

That promise is not qualified.

Well, certainly, it's not "qualified" in the sense that everyone is eligible, and that everyone is equally exhorted to repentance and belief. This is the general call. But it is only effectual for those whom the Father has given to the Son; they are the ones that will come to Him... without fail. These are His elect, born again and called at their appointed times by the Father's inward call via His Spirit (John 3:5-8; Acts 13:48).

...there are not going to be people existing eternally in sorrow, misery, weeping, suffering.

We have differing opinions on this, as we are both very aware.

God... would know that there is misery and suffering and agony and weeping for the rest of existence, never to end, always always, millions of trillions of years and not one second closer to relief.

Yes, He would. He will have given them up completely to their own selfish desires and sent them away from the new heaven and new earth permanently because God will never be in the presence of sin. This is His final justice and resulting judgment.

That is abhorrent.

Well, maybe to you, right now -- and I can understand that -- but that really means nothing. Until we are glorified, our sympathies will rest more easily with human beings than with God -- His glory and perfect justice.

There is no point to this. There is no need for this.

God will never dispense of or compromise any part of His character, including His love, His justice, His holiness, and His glory.

Even in the world of the dead now, that kind of suffering does not exist; the dead know nothing; they are sleeping - awaiting a resurrection.

Well, they don't exist "under the sun" -- in this life; that's what Ecclesiastes is all about -- for sure.

But for some reason (some) men have decided that they must be awakened so that they can then exist in conscious suffering for all eternity?

LOL! Again, in the same manner, for some reason, some men have decided that they must not be awakened so that they don't have to exist in conscious suffering for all eternity.

Weeping, mourning, gnashing teeth - for all time, never ending. Ever.

I mean, you disagree, as I am well aware, but that's what the Bible says. They will depart from His presence. It is what it is.

At the very least no one can deny that God would have known the possibility that not everyone would come to life, that there would be enemies...

Sure. God made each man as He made Him. He is the potter and we are the clay.

...that some would choose and receive death.

Well nobody actually chooses death, of course, but they choose what they in their self-righteousness and pride think is life.

Yet man thinks that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering?

Well, some know that God provided a Way to satisfy His justice on man's behalf, and thereby made possible man's redemption and salvation.

That He did not know how to plan for that possibility/actuality?

Oh, He planned, certainly. From all eternity.

His plan is much better than what (some) men have interpreted it as being.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,

We CAN exist into eternity future, but that is not automatic.

Yes it is, because God made us in His image. I mean I'm not sure I'd say "automatic," but, well, a given.

I was going to say that it is not a given... but eternal life is given - it just is not given to everyone. So I changed it to automatic.

1. Okay, well, it is a given, because, as I said, God created each of us in His image.

2. I agree with you that it is not given to everyone, but that has never really been part of this discussion and I'm not sure why you bring that up now, as I don't think there's ever been any disagreement on that from anyone.

I brought it up to explain why I used the word 'automatic' over 'given'.

Eternal existence is a doctrine of men, an interpretation of various things, but never taught by Christ and no distinction is made between eternal life and eternal existence.

Okay, and yet again (for the umpteenth time), not the case at all.

Then show me where Christ teaches and makes a distinction between eternal life and eternal existence. Show where Christ teaches that (Adam) having been made in the 'image of God' means that a person cannot be destroyed (completely)? That a person must be eternal (into the future)?

Just because man was made in the image of God does not mean that man is identical to God in all ways or that man has all the same attributes of God.

We cannot speak life into being. God can and did. We could not eat from the tree of knowing good and bad, and yet live (as God can). God is not a man. We are man(kind).

We can die. God cannot.

Nowhere in the Bible is non-existence even mentioned

Utter destruction is, such as in the example of Sodom and Gomorrah.

if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly 2 Peter 2:6

In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

The very nature of fire (unless it is used to REFINE) destroys/consumes completely, so that there is nothing left. That is the example that we are given.

More than though - there is no reason to accept that a person must exist for all eternity, to begin with.

The choice is between life and death. Not life and eternal existence.

- and, in all the passages discussed regarding this subject (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23, John 5:25-29, Revelation 20:11-15, and others).

The only two passages above that deal with the resurrection of the dead and subsequent judgment (for some of those who are resurrected) are at John 5 and Rev 20. Those who rise to be condemned (John 5) are those who receive the judgment and the second death (lake of fire). Fire being that which destroys; consumes completely.

Equating existence and death is something man has done.

Nobody is doing that... at least no one I know of.

Then what would you call it when man has said that those who receive the judgment and the second death are actually receiving eternal existence? How is that not equating death and existence?

What would you call it when the choice that God set before us is Life or Death (Deut 30:19), is actually a choice between life and eternal existence (as men say)?

Sure, you might say eternal existence apart from God, but that is still eternal existence.

God... would know that there is misery and suffering and agony and weeping for the rest of existence, never to end, always always, millions of trillions of years and not one second closer to relief.

Yes, He would. He will have given them up completely to their own selfish desires and sent them away from the new heaven and new earth permanently because God will never be in the presence of sin. This is His final justice and resulting judgment.

So where will they be then? There is no more Hades (the world of the dead). If they are not part of the new heavens and the new earth (and nothing else is said to be in existence), then where is this place that holds the dead who are tormented for all eternity?

That is abhorrent.

Well, maybe to you, right now -- and I can understand that -- but that really means nothing. Until we are glorified, our sympathies will rest more easily with human beings than with God -- His glory and perfect justice.

God has not spent all this time teaching/training us (via His son) in mercy and love only to discard those teachings when glorified.

There is no point to this. There is no need for this.

God will never dispense of or compromise any part of His character, including His love, His justice, His holiness, and His glory.

That does not respond to the fact that there is no point to eternal suffering; there is no need for it.

But we have been through this before.

Even in the world of the dead now, that kind of suffering does not exist; the dead know nothing; they are sleeping - awaiting a resurrection.

Well, they don't exist "under the sun" -- in this life; that's what Ecclesiastes is all about -- for sure.

I did not mention the people not existing. They certainly exist - they are sleeping, knowing nothing, awaiting the resurrection. Sleeping people exist.

I said that they are not suffering.

But for some reason (some) men have decided that they must be awakened so that they can then exist in conscious suffering for all eternity?

LOL! Again, in the same manner, for some reason, some men have decided that they must not be awakened so that they don't have to exist in conscious suffering for all eternity.

I never said they must not be awakened. But if, as you claim, it is not possible for a person to be destroyed (completely), and we can see that it is possible for the dead to know nothing, to sleep - then what is the point in keeping them awake to suffer for all eternity?

(Note to the reader: the above is just a hypothetical meant to show that eternal suffering is unnecessary. What is true is that at the resurrection of the dead - some are resurrected to life, and some are resurrected to judgment and the second death/the lake of fire.)

Yet man thinks that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering?

Well, some know that God provided a Way to satisfy His justice on man's behalf, and thereby made possible man's redemption and salvation.

That skirts around the issue, instead of addressing it.

His plan is much better than what (some) men have interpreted it as being.

Agreed.

Grace and peace to you.

Peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

Then show me where Christ teaches and makes a distinction between eternal life and eternal existence.

There is no distinction between eternal life and eternal existence. Neither is there a distinction between eternal judgment/punishment or the second death and eternal existence. Why would Christ make any distinction between those things and eternal existence? Conversely, though, I think there would surely be a distinction made if there were one. The distinction by Christ directly and elsewhere in Scripture is between the two resurrections (to eternal life and to eternal judgment) and where those experiencing one or the other spend eternity.

Just because man was made in the image of God does not mean that man is identical to God in all ways or that man has all the same attributes of God.

I never said such. But He is eternal, and we are, too, as a result of His creating us in His image.

Nowhere in the Bible is non-existence even mentioned

Utter destruction is, such as in the example of Sodom and Gomorrah.

As I have said before, the concept of destruction here (and elsewhere) is not in the sense of annihilation but rather in the sense of someone's ruin, as in damnation.

if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction, reducing them to ashes as an example of what is coming on the ungodly[/color] 2 Peter 2:6

Yes, the example of Sodom and Gomorrah is about the condemnation and judgment of God and its severity and permanence. This is the whole thrust of what Peter is saying here. It is not about the physical destruction of those cities.

In like manner, Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who indulged in sexual immorality and pursued strange flesh, are on display as an example of those who sustain the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7

Same as above.

The very nature of fire (unless it is used to REFINE) destroys/consumes completely, so that there is nothing left. That is the example that we are given.

I don't expect you to do with this what I mean for you to do, but our God is a consuming fire, is He not?

The choice is between life and death.

Right, I agree. But again, neither one has anything to do with existence or the lack thereof.

...and, in all the passages discussed regarding this subject (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23, John 5:25-29, Revelation 20:11-15, and others).

The only two passages above that deal with the resurrection of the dead and subsequent judgment (for some of those who are resurrected) are at John 5 and Rev 20. Those who rise to be condemned (John 5) are those who receive the judgment and the second death (lake of fire). Fire being that which destroys; consumes completely.

My point was that all neither state nor show nor imply nor insinuate annihilation. And that, to the contrary, all either state or show or imply or insinuate (or more than one) that annihilation is not the case.

The Matthew 7, Matthew 25, and Revelation 20 passages describe the judgment, and Jesus sends the condemned away. The Luke 16 passage shows graphically that an unrepentant person is in a conscious state of torment after the first death and after the second death ("...a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us"). The Luke 23 passage -- sorry, specifically verses 39 to 42 -- shows that both those who believe (as the thief crucified on Christ's right did) would after physical death immediately be with Christ in paradise, and those who do not believe (as the thief crucified on His left) would after physical death immediately be... somewhere other than with Christ.

Equating existence and death is something man has done.

Nobody is doing that... at least no one I know of.

Then what would you call it when man has said that those who receive the judgment and the second death are actually receiving eternal existence? How is that not equating death and existence?

LOL! Aren't those folks also saying that those who receive the eternal life is also an eternal existence? They are.

Sure, you might say eternal existence apart from God, but that is still eternal existence.

Great! Yes, this is the second death.

So where will they be then? There is no more Hades (the world of the dead). If they are not part of the new heavens and the new earth (and nothing else is said to be in existence), then where is this place that holds the dead who are tormented for all eternity?

Those are fair questions, I guess, but really unanswerable. The only really concrete thing we are told is that they will be sent away from the new heaven and new earth.

God has not spent all this time teaching/training us (via His son) in mercy and love only to discard those teachings when glorified.

Oh, my. Okay, no comment, here -- except this one, I guess... : I'm dismissing this.

There is no point to this. There is no need for this.

God will never dispense of or compromise any part of His character, including His love, His justice, His holiness, and His glory.[/quote]
That does not respond to the fact that there is no point to eternal suffering; there is no need for it. [/quote]
But that's the problem. It's not a fact in any shape or form. God's justice has to be satisfied. The only question then is, who satisfies it? God Himself, in the Person of Jesus, on a man's behalf? Or the man himself?

But we have been through this before.

Indeed.

Even in the world of the dead now, that kind of suffering does not exist; the dead know nothing; they are sleeping - awaiting a resurrection.

Well, they don't exist "under the sun" -- in this life; that's what Ecclesiastes is all about -- for sure.

I did not mention the people not existing. They certainly exist - they are sleeping, knowing nothing, awaiting the resurrection. Sleeping people exist.

I said that they are not suffering.

Well, right, those in and with Christ are not suffering. Agreed.

Yet man thinks that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering?

Well, some know that God provided a Way to satisfy His justice on man's behalf, and thereby made possible man's redemption and salvation.

That skirts around the issue, instead of addressing it.

Not at all. It is a redirect of sorts. I don't mean any offense with this, but what do you do with an absurdity like that? That some "think that God did not plan a failsafe to keep people from eternal conscious suffering"? What? So yeah, it's a redirect. To the Savior, Christ. To the Gospel.

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

Time is a measurement its not something that is tangible no more than you can hold an inch or a meter. All of these things are measurements. Our minds make it linear to make sense of our lives. We now know the speed at which two people are traveling will affect the passage of time for each person. This is called relativity and it has been proven over and over.

Past, present, future are concepts of the human mind that we make, they are not things that actually exist. What I'm desperate for is someone that understands relativity and that it squashes the idea that we are part of some river of linear time.

I will check out that video. Is it something you feel proves that it makes impossible for The Creator to predestine?

It proves the True God didn't predestine everyone's lives in a timeline. Read my posts carefully, I never said Jehovah can't predestine something to happen, what He doesn't do is predestine people's fates and all world events in a fixed timeline. There is no timeline to view the future as the 'future' is a concept to help us make since of our existence and not a tangible viewable thing.

Are you saying that The Creator cannot predestine everyone's lives in a timeline? Or That The Creator could do, but didn't predestine everyone's lives in a timeline?

Genesis 1:14, 15 tells us that one of the purposes of the “luminaries in the expanse of the heavens” is that they might serve for “seasons and for days and years.” They have a pattern what we can measure so we can make sense of what to do when we see these 'signs'. That is what the True God Jehovah gave us. Not a fixed timeline for all of mankind. He can predict when the Sun sets and rises. When the moon is full and when new. How? The same way we do.

The Seasons days and years are not for The Creators benefit, but for the benefit of us [Spirit] within human form experiencing this universe. Even the bible says that The Creator does not measure time the way we do. 2 Peter 3:8 suggests that The Creator does not really measure time at all, which makes sense if The Creator is Eternal.

We take information and do the math based on known factors. Now imagine the factors that are known the the True God! Just because there is no timeline doesn't mean He isn't all knowing, because He is. He knows there is no timeline too. Nothing is certain unless He wants to it to be certain. He doesn't want people to reject Him and die so He wouldn't make certain someone did reject Him. (1 Timothy 2:4)

Rejection of The Creator is impossible. Rejection of misinformation regarding The Creator is possible and permissible. 1 Timothy 2:4 reinforces the understanding that The Creator predestined everything...and in that, no matter how much 'time' is involved in each case - each individuate Spirit will eventually "find their way back home" in relation to the realization of Who they really are [rather than the misinformation that they are something they are not, such as being told they are "flesh" [human] and they will "die" and 'be no more/no longer exist', except for a few who "make the grade"...

In the meantime, part of the process re the next phase involves bringing the individuate Spirits who died believing they were the "human being/flesh device" out from under the illusion that such belief had them create for themselves.

Again "Time" and "Timelines" is not an issue regarding this process - predestiny is simply The Creator knowing how things would go from 'start' to 'finish' in relation to creating the physical universe and Breathing life into it. The Creator is the Life within the Creation.

The True God Jehovah does know what a person's heart is because He can read hearts. (1 Samuel 16:7) So He knows a person's resolve and what they will or will not do. Not because of some predestined good or evil made in a timeline but because He knows us better than we know ourselves. (Romans 8:27 and Ps 139)

Precisely my argument. Most of us think of ourselves as "The Human Being" [flesh] whereas The Creator knows us better than we know ourselves, because The Creator knows us as The Creator knows Itself. As Eternal Spirit. There is no escaping that eventual conclusion, but there are always ways in which the individual can continue to hide from it, and those ways always involve misrepresenting who one actually is and believing in that misrepresentation as real, rather than the illusion it is.

"Good and Evil" is also part of that misinformation process. The Creator knew it would play a part in the whole process, but not a very significant one. Christ sorted it, as The Creator predestined Christ would sort it.

I don't see the relevance of your argument involving timelines as showing that The Creator does not predestine everything.
What you are appearing to argue is that The Creator - for some reason in relation to this particular universe - chose not to 'know' what would happen - by somehow "forgetting" or otherwise willfully ignoring that available knowledge.

For what reason would The Creator do this thing you claim The Creator has done? Until you can answer that reasonably, I see no point in accepting your beliefs about this.

[2timothy316]

Time is a measurement its not something that is tangible no more than you can hold an inch or a meter. All of these things are measurements. Our minds make it linear to make sense of our lives. We now know the speed at which two people are traveling will affect the passage of time for each person. This is called relativity and it has been proven over and over.

Past, present, future are concepts of the human mind that we make, they are not things that actually exist. What I'm desperate for is someone that understands relativity and that it squashes the idea that we are part of some river of linear time.

I will check out that video. Is it something you feel proves that it makes impossible for The Creator to predestine?

It proves the True God didn't predestine everyone's lives in a timeline. Read my posts carefully, I never said Jehovah can't predestine something to happen, what He doesn't do is predestine people's fates and all world events in a fixed timeline. There is no timeline to view the future as the 'future' is a concept to help us make since of our existence and not a tangible viewable thing.

Are you saying that The Creator cannot predestine everyone's lives in a timeline? Or That The Creator could do, but didn't predestine everyone's lives in a timeline?

I'm saying based on your dogma you don't know what God actually created. It's not about what He can or can't do. Its about what He has done concerning time and that it doesn't seem that you understand it. Past, present future are concepts so that we can make sense of our universe. God doesn't exist in the past or the future because there is no actual past or future. You'd understand what I'm talking about if you understood the theory relativity.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #170]

It's your opinion of elegant that I don't trust and if you're depending on that as your truth, it's not enough for me.

It is more than simply an "opinion" 2Timothy. I gave concrete examples as to the nature of the elegance by using just one of uncountable examples which show the elegance of the creation.

This picture, was a visual example.


Do you know what that is a picture of?

I will tell you. It is a picture of a cell from a human form. How is one blind to the elegance of The Creator, who can place a universe inside a single cell?
How is one to be excused for believing any hack and slash doctrine regarding the next phase, where The Creator simply exterminates non-Christians, as well as Christians who are not "True Christians" because they do not believe what you believe?

That is not elegance. That is a false image of The Creator which should be understood as coming from a more ignorant time and place and treated as no longer true.

Where we look to for truth is not a strawman, it's very relevant and where you look is lacking.

How can you say that in all truth? Sure, it is your opinion, and lacks the necessary elegance to be inspired by The Creator.
But I also look in the same place you do [the bible] and there it is - albeit somewhat obscured...as can be expected since the bible was written in a more ignorant time.

You're looking into clouds and finding shapes isn't proof of your ideas of truth.

Our looking into a cell from a human body and finding a universe goes a long way in reminding us that The Creator is not a hack and slash entity.

My source is the Bible and I let everyone know.

My Source is The Creator and I am letting you and every other reader know.

As I recall you keep your sources secret and let no one know.

That is not true. One only has to read my member notes to see evidence. Your 'recall' is no better a device than your beliefs on what happens in the Next Phase are.

Unless your opinion of elegant is one of your sources...if so...I see why you keep your sources secret. I see E=Mc2 as elegant but that is my opinion and it's not my opinion that makes it true.

Unless you are claiming that E=mc2 is not elegant in The Creators estimation, I see no reason why you mention it at all.
I doubt there is anything which is NOT elegant about the creation we are realizing ourselves within. Even if that were simply my 'opinion' at least it is based upon acknowledging the truth about the creation.

The theory of relativity exposes that what we see of time is actually an illusion, meaning that what you are basing your belief system on starts on an illusion. Nothing you've been presenting can be taken as truth as it is based on your flawed perception of time.

But it is not based upon any perception of time. It simply acknowledges that "When in time, do as the timekeepers do" and clearly an organized timeline such as ours is more the evidence of planning [organization/Creator-based predestination] than not.

And when all is said and done, that really is what "predestined" signifies from The Creators perspective.

That it is "not enough for you" is a silly statement being that my understanding of what happens in the next phase is way more complex and longsighted than the hack and slash beliefs that you currently have about that.

[William]

Time is a measurement its not something that is tangible no more than you can hold an inch or a meter. All of these things are measurements. Our minds make it linear to make sense of our lives. We now know the speed at which two people are traveling will affect the passage of time for each person. This is called relativity and it has been proven over and over.

Past, present, future are concepts of the human mind that we make, they are not things that actually exist. What I'm desperate for is someone that understands relativity and that it squashes the idea that we are part of some river of linear time.

I will check out that video. Is it something you feel proves that it makes impossible for The Creator to predestine?

It proves the True God didn't predestine everyone's lives in a timeline. Read my posts carefully, I never said Jehovah can't predestine something to happen, what He doesn't do is predestine people's fates and all world events in a fixed timeline. There is no timeline to view the future as the 'future' is a concept to help us make since of our existence and not a tangible viewable thing.

Are you saying that The Creator cannot predestine everyone's lives in a timeline? Or That The Creator could do, but didn't predestine everyone's lives in a timeline?

I'm saying based on your dogma you don't know what God actually created. It's not about what He can or can't do. Its about what He has done concerning time and that it doesn't seem that you understand it. Past, present future are concepts so that we can make sense of our universe. God doesn't exist in the past or the future because there is no actual past or future. You'd understand what I'm talking about if you understood the theory relativity.

The theory of relativity only applies to this particular universe experience.

Tell me if you can.

What is actually wrong or evil about The Creator knowing what choices you will make based on what beliefs you chose to accept?
Furthermore, what is wrong or evil about The Creator knowing that you will create your next experience - in the next phase - based upon these beliefs you clung to and took with you from this phase?
And in relation to that, what is wrong or evil about The Creator gifting you the ability to be the creator your own realty experience in the next phase?

[tam]

Peace to you Pinseeker!

Then show me where Christ teaches and makes a distinction between eternal life and eternal existence.

There is no distinction between eternal life and eternal existence.

Then how can a person who does NOT receive eternal life... then receive eternal existence?

Neither is there a distinction between eternal judgment/punishment or the second death and eternal existence.

There is though. Destruction (utter destruction) is the opposite of existence. If something is destroyed (consumed entirely), then it no longer exists. Such as the example of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, reduced to ash (and even the ash no longer exists).

The choice is Life or Death.

The choice is not Life or eternal existence.

Why would Christ make any distinction between those things and eternal existence? Conversely, though, I think there would surely be a distinction made if there were one.

See above.

The distinction by Christ directly and elsewhere in Scripture is between the two resurrections (to eternal life and to eternal judgment) and where those experiencing on or the other spend eternity.

This is one resurrection (the resurrection of the dead), with two outcomes. Resurrection to life OR resurrection to Judgment and the second death.

As for the second outcome (resurrection to judgment), people are not just resurrected to judgment. They are resurrected to judgment AND the second death (the lake of fire). Two things are occurring:

1 - Judgment

2 - That judgment is carried out (being cast into the lake of fire)

The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Resurrection - to life or to judgment - and if judgment, then that judgment is carried out (thrown into the lake of fire).

Just because man was made in the image of God does not mean that man is identical to God in all ways or that man has all the same attributes of God.

I never said such. But He is eternal, and we are, too, as a result of His creating us in His image.

And I asked you to show me where Christ taught this. Where is it written that man being created in the image of God means that man is eternal. Where did Christ teach that?

Nowhere in the Bible is non-existence even mentioned

Utter destruction is, such as in the example of Sodom and Gomorrah.

As I have said before, the concept of destruction here (and elsewhere) is not in the sense of annihilation but rather in the sense of someone's ruin, as in damnation.

But Sodom and Gomorrah are no more; that is the example that we are given. And of course the example of fire (again unless it is being used to REFINE) consumes completely; destroys. So that there is nothing left. Nothing. (well, see below)

The very nature of fire (unless it is used to REFINE) destroys/consumes completely, so that there is nothing left. That is the example that we are given.

I don't expect you to do with this what I mean for you to do, but our God is a consuming fire, is He not?

Yes, but that does not mean that God must go around destroying things with His presence - God brought life into existence using His great and dynamic energy/power. He knows how to use His own power. For example, fire comes down from heaven and devours 'gog and magog' who rides across the earth to attack the people God loves. But that fire does not harm those people God is protecting.

Same with the blazing fire that was hot enough to consume the guards standing nearby, but did not harm AT ALL Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who were thrown into it. Daniel 3:8-30

The choice is between life and death.

Right, I agree. But again, neither one has anything to do with existence or the lack thereof.

Obviously life means existence and eternal life means eternal existence. That is just common sense. If something is alive, it exists. But equating eternal death with continued and eternal existence is backward.

...and, in all the passages discussed regarding this subject (Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23, John 5:25-29, Revelation 20:11-15, and others).

The only two passages above that deal with the resurrection of the dead and subsequent judgment (for some of those who are resurrected) are at John 5 and Rev 20. Those who rise to be condemned (John 5) are those who receive the judgment and the second death (lake of fire). Fire being that which destroys; consumes completely.

My point was that all neither state nor show nor imply nor insinuate annihilation.

None use the word 'annihilation', but annihilation is a synonym of destroy, meaning to destroy completely.

I do not know how you can possibly deny that the implication of annihilation is not present in the word destroy; destruction. Not with the examples we are given (such as with S&G); not with the knowledge of how fire can destroy so that there is nothing left (except ash, perhaps, but certainly nothing alive and conscious).

The cities of Sodom and Gomorroh were destroyed, and are no more.

The Luke 16 passage shows graphically that an unrepentant person is in a conscious state of torment after the first death and after the second death ("...a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us").

Luke 16 is a parable, and is taking place BEFORE the resurrection of the dead (and so before the second death). We can know that this does not represent anything after the resurrection of the dead, because Hades is emptied out (and then thrown into the lake of fire) at the resurrection of the dead. But in the parable, the Rich man is in Hades.

The Luke 23 passage -- sorry, specifically verses 39 to 42 -- shows that both those who believe (as the thief crucified on Christ's right did) would after physical death immediately be with Christ in paradise, and those who do not believe (as the thief crucified on His left) would after physical death immediately be... somewhere other than with Christ.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything we are talking about? Nothing is said there about where those who do not believe would be; and nothing there suggests that these others would exist eternally.

(side note: considering that Christ was in the grave (Sheol/Hades/the world of the dead) for "3 days and nights", unless you are suggesting that Paradise exists in Hades, what you have said above is not possible; not on that very day at least).

Equating existence and death is something man has done.

Nobody is doing that... at least no one I know of.

Then what would you call it when man has said that those who receive the judgment and the second death are actually receiving eternal existence? How is that not equating death and existence?

LOL! Aren't those folks also saying that those who receive the eternal life is also an eternal existence? They are.

Yeah, well that is just common sense. Eternal life necessarily includes eternal existence.

Maybe you could answer the question I asked now?

Sure, you might say eternal existence apart from God, but that is still eternal existence.

Great! Yes, this is the second death.

See above question then.

So where will they be then? There is no more Hades (the world of the dead). If they are not part of the new heavens and the new earth (and nothing else is said to be in existence), then where is this place that holds the dead who are tormented for all eternity?

Those are fair questions, I guess, but really unanswerable. The only really concrete thing we are told is that they will be sent away from the new heaven and new earth.

Some food for thought then, yes? Though there is One who knows the answer to the question (Christ Jaheshua - and of course His Father). One could take the issue to Him, right?

God has not spent all this time teaching/training us (via His son) in mercy and love only to discard those teachings when glorified.

Oh, my. Okay, no comment, here -- except this one, I guess... : I'm dismissing this.

Okay. I'm leaving it up though.

There is no point to this. There is no need for this.

God will never dispense of or compromise any part of His character, including His love, His justice, His holiness, and His glory.

That does not respond to the fact that there is no point to eternal suffering; there is no need for it.

But that's the problem. It's not a fact in any shape or form. God's justice has to be satisfied. The only question then is, who satisfies it? God Himself, in the Person of Jesus, on a man's behalf? Or the man himself?

If I can find the links to our previous discussion on this, I will put them up here.

Edited to add in links:

Responses/rebuttals to the claim that God's justice is supposedly satisfied by eternal suffering:

viewtopic.php?p=1002588#p1002588
viewtopic.php?p=1005237#p1005237
viewtopic.php?p=1005247#p1005247
viewtopic.php?p=1006985#p1006985
viewtopic.php?p=1007005#p1007005
viewtopic.php?p=1007050#p1007050

(the following is just a reminder about the meaning in Ecclesiastes: viewtopic.php?p=1008732#p1008732 and viewtopic.php?p=1008817#p1008817)

Even in the world of the dead now, that kind of suffering does not exist; the dead know nothing; they are sleeping - awaiting a resurrection.

Well, they don't exist "under the sun" -- in this life; that's what Ecclesiastes is all about -- for sure.

I did not mention the people not existing. They certainly exist - they are sleeping, knowing nothing, awaiting the resurrection. Sleeping people exist.

I said that they are not suffering.

Well, right, those in and with Christ are not suffering. Agreed.

I said more than that though. What about the people who descended to Sheol/Hades (who are even now awaiting the resurrection of the dead)? Do you think Job is suffering (or even thought he would be suffering after he died and descended to Sheol/Hades/)? Job, who longed to go to Hades (Sheol) in order to escape his suffering? Do you think Jacob suffered in the world of the dead after he died and was buried and gathered to his people? What about David, who said that he would go to his son (who died), but that his son would not come back to him? (2Samuel 12:23)

Grace and peace to you.

Thank you, and peace also to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(edited to add in links, 2021-04-21)

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #32]

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #174]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #176]

[Replying to tam in post #179]

The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[2timothy316]

The theory of relativity only applies to this particular universe experience.

E=mc2 here in this universe, what is the equation there? Tell me if you can and then show me the experiment that provides evidence of that equation.