Predestination Theology

[William]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

[myth-one.com]

Regarding "whosoever believeth" -- again -- that idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel.

Jesus Christ was also known to have used that idea.

So we need to look there, in Joel 2, to see and understand the full context.

Sure, certainly Joel understands that term better than the only begotten Son of God.

Joel says, “...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

So Joel states that "everyone who calls" on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus states that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus as their Savior shall be saved.

So how different is "every one who calls" from "whosoever believeth"?

[William]

Regarding "whosoever believeth" -- again -- that idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel.

Jesus Christ was also known to have used that idea.

So we need to look there, in Joel 2, to see and understand the full context.

Sure, certainly Joel understands that term better than the only begotten Son of God.

Joel says, “...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

So Joel states that "everyone who calls" on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus states that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus as their Savior shall be saved.

So how different is "every one who calls" from "whosoever believeth"?

Why should it be that one is different from the other thus, one must be incorrect?

[myth-one.com]

Regarding "whosoever believeth" -- again -- that idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel.

Jesus Christ was also known to have used that idea.

So we need to look there, in Joel 2, to see and understand the full context.

Sure, certainly Joel understands that term better than the only begotten Son of God.

Joel says, “...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

So Joel states that "everyone who calls" on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus states that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus as their Savior shall be saved.

So how different is "every one who calls" from "whosoever believeth"?

Why should it be that one is different from the other thus, one must be incorrect?

It should be obvious that they are identical! It is predestined that those who believe in Christ will be saved.

It is a general predestination, not on an individuals by name predestination.

In regards to salvation, the "elect", the "chosen", and "whosoever believeth" are the same group.

They are the believers or Christians.

===============================

This is not to say that individuals and groups are not especially chosen or elected to perform special missions or tasks.

As examples, the Jews are "God's chosen people" and Paul was chosen to spread the gospel to the gentiles.

Those chosen are always the underdog or seemingly misfit for the job.

[PinSeeker]

Regarding "whosoever believeth" -- again -- that idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel.

Jesus Christ was also known to have used that idea.

So we need to look there, in Joel 2, to see and understand the full context.

Sure, certainly Joel understands that term better than the only begotten Son of God.

Joel says, “...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

So Joel states that "everyone who calls" on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus states that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus as their Savior shall be saved.

So how different is "every one who calls" from "whosoever believeth"?

Why should it be that one is different from the other thus, one must be incorrect?

Well, William, that's my point. Both are very true. So they have to be reconciled. How would you do that?

[PinSeeker]

Why should it be that one is different from the other thus, one must be incorrect?

It should be obvious that they are identical! It is predestined that those who believe in Christ will be saved.

This, in an of itself, is very true, I agree, but the predestination is set before the foundation of the world by God. And then, at the appointed time, those who are predestined receive the call of the Lord and thus receive mercy. It is by God's grace, not man's works or merit of any kind. After that point, they will (inevitably) then call on the name of the Lord, and they will come to repentance and belief in Christ.

It is a general predestination, not on an individuals by name predestination.

This cannot be true, because not everyone is saved. Again, Paul is talking about a specific group in Romans 9 when speaking of God's elect. God does not predestine everyone to His salvation. He has mercy on whom He has mercy, compassion on whom He has compassion(Moses and Paul both say this). So then it depends not on the man or woman who wills or runs, but on God, Who has mercy (again, Moses and Paul).

In regards to salvation, the "elect", the "chosen", and "whosoever believeth" are the same group. They are the believers or Christians.

This I agree with, too. But fact that must be come to terms with is, God's Elect, His chosen, cannot be called His Elect or His chosen if being member of either of these groups depends first on man's will or strength. No, until the point that we are called -- again, by God, via His Holy Spirit -- we are all dead in our trespasses (sin) and unable to do anything to better our spiritual lot. So, it depends on God, Who has mercy.

This is not to say that individuals and groups are not especially chosen or elected to perform special missions or tasks.

Yeah, God can use anybody or anything in accomplishing His purposes, for sure. But this is a different subject, really.

As examples, the Jews are "God's chosen people" and Paul was chosen to spread the gospel to the gentiles.

God's chosen people are His Elect and were never limited to just ethnic Jews. God's Israel includes all believers, no matter what ethnicity. Paul is very clear in Romans 11 that a partial hardening has been placed upon Israel (upon ethnic Jews who are elect), and this will remain the case until the fullness of the elect Gentiles are brought in, and then that partial hardening will be removed, and in this way all of God's Israel -- which includes a multitude that no one can number made up of people of all ethnicities, all tongues, tribes, and nations... these are the true Jews, as Paul says at the end of Romans 2 -- will be saved.

Those chosen are always the underdog or seemingly misfit for the job.

Well, God chose the "foolish" (in quotes for a reason) to shame the "wise" (also in quotes for a reason), sure. But this is also a different subject, really.

[myth-one.com]

Why should it be that one is different from the other thus, one must be incorrect?

It should be obvious that they are identical! It is predestined that those who believe in Christ will be saved.

This, in and of itself, is very true, I agree, but the predestination is set before the foundation of the world by God.

Correct.

But you do not understand what was predestined!

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and placed a host of angels on the earth as caretakers. Some of these spiritual caretakers, led by Satan, rebelled against God's authority. As a result the earth came to be without form, void, and dark.

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled.

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

That is the origin of that long word you keep using --- "predestination."

It is predestined that those who will be saved are those who will believe and accept Jesus as their Savior.

God does not know if they will be Tom, Dick, Harry, Sally, or whomever.

What He does know is that they will be those who believe in Jesus as their Savior. Thus He identifies those humans who will be saved as -- "whosoever believeth."

That is the meaning of predestination!

And then, at the appointed time, those who are predestined receive the call of the Lord and thus receive mercy.

Absolutely not true!!

God set the rules in His covenant with mankind.

Whosoever believeth in Jesus as their Savior will be granted everlasting spiritual life:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

If God refuses to grant even one believer everlasting life, then God reneged on His everlasting covenant with mankind, and He would be a liar.

But that is an impossibility:

Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Therefore, whosoever believeth will be saved!

[William]

Regarding "whosoever believeth" -- again -- that idea and even that phraseology comes from the prophet Joel.

Jesus Christ was also known to have used that idea.

So we need to look there, in Joel 2, to see and understand the full context.

Sure, certainly Joel understands that term better than the only begotten Son of God.

Joel says, “...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.

So Joel states that "everyone who calls" on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Jesus states that "whosoever believeth" in Jesus as their Savior shall be saved.

So how different is "every one who calls" from "whosoever believeth"?

Why should it be that one is different from the other thus, one must be incorrect?

Well, William, that's my point. Both are very true. So they have to be reconciled. How would you do that?

They don't have to be reconciled. Same mountain, different paths.

[PinSeeker]

But you do not understand what was predestined!

LOL! No, that's all you, my friend. But I guess we can agree to disagree...

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B.

There was never any "Plan B." That's what we call dispensational theology, rather than the covenant theology taught be Scripture. I appreciate your opinion, though; you are not alone in holding it.

It is predestined that those who will be saved are those who will believe and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No, it is predestined that certain people -- whom God chose before the foundation of the world, before they had ever done anything good or bad, His elect -- upon whom to have mercy and compassion. And these are the ones who, because they are predestined, will repent of their sins and accept Jesus as their Savior... call upon the name of the Lord. God predestines; we do not somehow predestine ourselves. See, dispensationalists, despite their best intentions, can't get their focus off the creature and onto the Creator. Yet again, salvation DOES NOT DEPEND on the man (or woman) who wills or runs, but on Him Who has mercy. Read Romans 9 through 11 again, maybe several more times. It's a wonderful piece of Scripture.

God does not know if they will be Tom, Dick, Harry, Sally, or whomever.

Well, that's terribly incorrect. But you're not alone in thinking that, unfortunately. But it doesn't "disqualify" you from being a Christian.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

They don't have to be reconciled.

Oh, but they do. They can be ignored, certainly, but if one takes Scripture seriously, he or she has to reconcile those two things.

Same mountain, different paths.

No, both "paths" have to be taken. Not either one, but both. Actually, the path is one and the same, whether one realizes it or not. That is why reconciliation is necessary.

Opinions noted and appreciated, though. Grace and peace to you, William.

[William]

They don't have to be reconciled.

Oh, but they do. They can be ignored, certainly, but if one takes Scripture seriously, he or she has to reconcile those two things.

Same mountain, different paths.

No, both "paths" have to be taken. Not either one, but both. Actually, the path is one and the same, whether one realizes it or not. That is why reconciliation is necessary.

Opinions noted and appreciated, though. Grace and peace to you, William.

Two aspects of one self climb the two paths up the same mountain and at [that] point become One again...