You MUST be born again

[Checkpoint]

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?

[myth-one.com]

Anything which lives until it dies cannot be said to have everlasting life.

Yes it could be said, because that individual lives until it turns against Jehovah. Therefore, if it never turns against Jehovah, it will always live.

Regarding humans:

I guess that by "turning against Jehovah," you mean sinning against God.

Where sin is the transgression of God's laws, or commandments:

For sin is the transgression of the law. (I John 3:4)

But under the New Testament, sin is now a moot point. After Jesus died for us, we fell under the grace of Jesus Christ for our salvation, not our works to fulfill the law. So sin does not control our salvation:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. (Romans 6:14)

If every human lived until they "turned against Jehovah," that would simply return us to the Old Testament Covenant -- which was the wages of sin is death. And since all have sinned, all are headed for the second death.
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Regarding the immortal spiritual world beings:

If one is immortal, whether they turn against Jehovah or not, they will always live.

The devil is the most obvious example of this in the scriptures:

He turned against Jehovah:

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!... For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God... I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. (Isaiah 14:12-14)

But God cannot kill him, because God created him immortal.

And his punishment is to be imprisoned for ever and ever in the lake of fire and brimstone:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

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In an act of love, God created mankind a little lower than the angels and allows them to choose or reject everlasting life after experiencing a taste of life.
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Beings created as immortal had no say in their creation.

Likewise, mankind had no say in their creation.

But each man or woman chooses their future as everlasting life or everlasting death -- after having both choices clearly explained to them.

Thus we decide our eternity.

We have a say!

The fear is gone.

[JehovahsWitness]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

What does the lake of fire represent? Was "DEATH" not also hurled into that same lake? Death is a condition it cannot suffer pain ... so what does it mean that "death is tormented in the lake of fire" ? Again ...what could the lake of fire represent that would apply equally to "death" "hades" AND "Satan the Devil"?

[myth-one.com]

Anything which lives until it dies cannot be said to have everlasting life.

Q#1 And what about that which lives but never dies? Can someone that never dies be described as having "everlasting life"¤?

¤ life that goes on/ continues forever

Yes, that which lives and can never die has everlasting life.

Q#2 Is there a difference between living forever and being INDESTRUCTIBLE?

[ * ] For this discussion "immortal"/"immortality" can be understood to mean, being indestructible. To have self-generating life that is not dependent on anything or anyone to be sustained; life that cannot be terminated.

Probably not.

[JehovahsWitness]

Q#1 And what about that which lives but never dies? Can someone that never dies be described as having "everlasting life"¤?

¤ life that goes on/ continues forever

Yes, that which lives and can never die has everlasting life.

Why are you saying "yes" that is not what I asked. Would you like to answer the question I actually asked?

Q#1 And what about that which lives but never dies?

(I always notice when someone tries to slip a change of wording past me)

Q#2 Is there a difference between living forever and being INDESTRUCTIBLE?

[ * ] For this discussion "immortal"/"immortality" can be understood to mean, being indestructible. To have self-generating life that is not dependent on anything or anyone to be sustained; life that cannot be terminated.

Probably not.

Probably? Do you not know? If you do not know if there is a difference between immortality and simply living forever, upon what basis do you claim PHYSICAL beings cannot gain one without the other?

[myth-one.com]

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

What does the lake of fire represent? Was "DEATH" not also hurled into that same lake? Death is a condition it cannot suffer pain ... so what does it mean that "death is tormented in the lake of fire" ? Again ...what could the lake of fire represent that would apply equally to "death" "hades" AND "Satan the Devil"?

After every human who has ever lived has been judged and either been born again as a spirit or killed in the lake of fire described as the second death, there is no longer any need for the concept of death.

At this point, everyone in existence is a spiritual body which will live forever. Any former humans still alive, exist as spirits. We have now truly become equal unto the angels.

The word hell used in Revelation 20:14 is better translated into English as grave. Since death is no longer a valid concept, there is no longer any need for a grave. Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both "cast" into the lake of fire and destroyed:

And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (Revelation 20:14)

If the extension of life from a maximum of one hundred and twenty years to eternity is our goal, then death is our enemy because death terminates life. Now that every being is an immortal spiritual body, death has been totally defeated. There will be no more death! Death and the grave are thus cast into the lake of fire and destroyed as prophesied:

The last enemy that shall be defeated is death. (I Corinthians 15:26)

[JehovahsWitness]

THE LAKE OF FIRE DESTROYS WHAT GOES IN IT

Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both "cast" into the lake of fire and destroyed

Ok so will death exist after this point? If nobody never dies will death continue to exist or will the lake of fire mark the end of its existence?

There will be no more death!

WHAT HAPPENS TO DEATH AND HADES AFTER GOING INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE?

1 CORINTHIANS 15:26

Contemporary English Version
and the last enemy he destroys will be death.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The last enemy he will destroy is death.

Literal Standard Version
The last enemy is done away with—death.

NET Bible
The last enemy to be eliminated is death.

If there will .be "no more death" after its being cast into the lake of fire, will there be no more Satan after he is cast into the same place?

[myth-one.com]

THE LAKE OF FIRE DESTROYS WHAT GOES IN IT

Because no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again. Therefore, the concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both "cast" into the lake of fire and destroyed

Ok so will death exist after this point? If nobody never dies will death continue to exist or will the lake of fire mark the end of its existence?

Now that every being is an immortal spiritual body, death has been totally defeated. There will be no more death! Death and the grave are thus cast into the lake of fire and destroyed as prophesied:

The last enemy that shall be defeated is death. (I Corinthians 15:26)

[myth-one.com]

If there will be "no more death" after its being cast into the lake of fire, will there be no more Satan after he is cast into the same place?

No, because Satan (the devil) is an immortal spiritual bodied being which cannot perrish.

Hell is going to be the eternal prison of the devil:

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)

The devil cannot be killed because he is a spirit. The fire and brimstone are not for him, but are there to kill humans which shall be cast into hell and suffer their second death.

It is the devil who will be tormented day and night for eternity, not the nonbelievers! This cannot be physical torture since the devil's spiritual body does not feel pain.

It is the torment of knowing he failed, being defeated, seeing lowly humans being upgraded to take his place, never being given another opportunity, separation from the Kingdom of God, etc.

He has rebelled, been defeated, and lost his freedom and authority for eternity.

[JehovahsWitness]

If there will be "no more death" after its being cast into the lake of fire, will there be no more Satan after he is cast into the same place?

No, because Satan (the devil) is an immortal spiritual bodied being which cannot perrish.

That is what is called "circular reasoning".

The fallacy of circular argument, known as petitio principii (“begging the question”), occurs when the premises presume, openly or covertly, the very conclusion that is to be demonstrated (example: “Gregory always votes wisely.” “But how do you know?” “Because he always votes Libertarian.”).

[tam]

Peace to you both,

Spirit beings are immortal in the sense that they do not die of natural causes. But they can be destroyed (by fire).

But - as a dear sister emphasized - God is SO certain that there will be no more NEED of hades (the world of the dead), that death and hades can be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed.

God has worked everything out beforehand. He knows exactly what is needed for His goal to be achieved. I personally find that MUCH more comforting, that God is so certain that He can destroy hades (the world of the dead), because there is going to be no more death, and therefore no more need for a world of the dead.


Peace again to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy