Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

[Revelations won]

Jehovah of the Old Testament, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament

There are some today who do not understand or accept that Jehovah of the Old Testament is in fact Jesus Christ of the New Testament. My observation is that He is in very deed the great Jehovah, who was and is King of kings and Lord of lords, even the very Messiah, our lord and redeemer, the Holy One of Israel and the the author of our resurrection and the only name whereby man can be saved. This is my “take� on this topic. I welcome all would care to debate and provide your evidence to support contrary or opposing views. The following scriptures are presented as evidence supporting my “take� on the above subject:

Isaiah 43:3 “For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour:"

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour�

Isaiah 9:6-7 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Isaiah 25:8-9 “He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

9And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.


Isaiah 26:19 “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.�


Matthew 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Exodus 3:14 God calls himself “I AM� “3 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.�


John 8:54-58 (Before Abraham was “I AM�. 54 “Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was,
I AM.�


Exodus 6:3 “And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.�


Deuteronomy 32:2-4 “My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.�


1Corinthians 10:1-4 “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.�


Hebrews 5:8-9 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;�


Psalms 118:22-24 “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23
This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24
This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.�





Acts 4:10-12 “Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.�


John 10:1-11 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2
But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6
This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7
Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8
All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


Ephesians 2:18-20 “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


Hebrews 1:1-4 “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.�


Hebrews 2:8-11 “And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.�

John 1:1-5 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2
The same was in the beginning with God.
3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.�


Colossians 2:8-14 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;�

[tam]

Peace to you,

It is also irrelevant to the point I was making about Christ stating that His Father is the One whom the Jews claimed as their God. The Jews claimed [YHWH] as their God.

I argued why it was relevant. Jesus also told the religious Jews that their Father was "The Devil" John 8:44 so this reinforces the idea that Jesus was NOT talking about YHWH [the Jewish idea of god] but about the real Creator [Jesus - aka The Father], whom they did not know.

His statement about His Father being the One whom the Jews claimed as their God is a simple statement. Why come up with elaborate explanations in an attempt to dismiss it?

It isn't all that elaborate Tammy. It is simply putting the pieces together after religion scrambled them up.

You are arranging the puzzle pieces so that they form the picture that you want, William.

No Tammy. What I expect The Creator to being, is directly related to what I observe the Creation as being.

But you are still manipulating the words that Christ said, in order to make them fit with your personal observations (which I am sure you would admit are limited). Since the idea that Christ could have been referring to the Most Holy One of Israel (YHWH) as His Father does not fit with your personal expectations and observations, you do not accept His words at face value.

And there is more than just the example from John 8:54, William.

Christ reads from Isaiah 61 in Luke:

“The Spirit of [the Lord] is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19
to proclaim the year of [the Lord]’s favor.”

And of course in the original scripture "the Lord" is [YHWH]. There is no [the LORD] in the scriptures. The phrase [the LORD] is simply being used in place of [YHWH].

The Spirit of the Sovereign [LORD] is on me,
because [the LORD] has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,
to proclaim freedom for the captives
and release from darkness for the prisoners,[a]
to proclaim the year of [the LORD]’s favor


So here Christ is reading from the scripture which states that [YHWH] anointed and sent Him to proclaim good news to the poor, etc. And later, when asked which were the most important commandments, He repeats the commandment from Deuteronomy 6:5, which is referring to [YHWH]:

Love [the Lord] your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

Or as it is in Deuteronomy:

Love [YHWH] your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.


For you to suggest that Christ did not claim His God and Father to be [YHWH] is to go against the evidence.

That is exactly what religion does. You asked (pinseeker, I believe) if Christ ever referred to His Father as "Jehovah" in what is written. I provided the verse where Christ does state that His Father is the One whom the Jews claim as their God. We know the Jews claimed - and still claim - [YHWH] as their God.

We also know that they reject Jesus. So what?

So... His Father is the One whom the Jews claimed as their God. That is what Christ said.

"I am [YHWH] your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." Exodus 20:2

There really is no evidence to support that this event actually occurred.

This is beside the point. The scripture is provided as evidence of who the Jews claim as their God.

It is a story invented by religion which claims the god YHWH is The Creator.
If it were important, then Jesus would no doubt have named the Father YHWH. There is no record of him doing so and the evidence you provided is not that great because it can be taken to mean the opposite, as I have shown.

See all of the above. Christ quoted from scriptures that stated [YHWH] as God, and as the One who sent Him, and as the One to love with one's whole heart, soul, mind. He also called the Temple (for the Most Holy One of Israel) His Father's house (though the true Temple is the Body of Christ). Why would He do that if He was not referring to the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH, as His Father?

but regardless, your reasoning does not apply here. Christ said that His Father is the One whom the Jews claimed as their God. The Jews claimed [YHWH] as their God. The Jews did not claim the devil as their God.

You appear to be purposefully ignoring the evidence Tammy. Matthew 7:23

Just because I do not accept something you say does not mean that I am ignoring evidence. Ignoring (or dismissing) the evidence is what you appear to be doing, William. You are ignoring (or dismissing) the fact that Christ said His Father is the One whom the Jews claimed as their God. See above (and throughout the OT) for the evidence of whom the Jews claim as their God.

See then how it is worded in the KJV "If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

One can easily enough see therein that Jesus is being ironic. "You claim to know The Creator as your 'God' yet you do not even recognize when The Creator [The Father...not "YHWH"] honours someone who is not a member of your religion."

There is no evidence that Christ is being ironic as you suggest. And who are you claiming the Father honored who was not a member of their religion? Because Christ - a Jew - was a member of that religion (the Temple and Priesthood and law, which God gave to Israel via Moses). Christ followed the law and the religious observances that His Father put in place. He also corrected things that the priests and teachers of the law had corrupted.

But I also provided other pieces of the puzzle for you to consider Tammy. These pieces fitted together point to the conclusion that Jesus was not speaking about any religions god, Jewish or otherwise.
Why do you think the religious leadership wanted Jesus dead Tammy? It is because they KNEW what Jesus was referring to.
Why do you think the subsequent religion of Christianity sanctioned murder and lying and cheating and dispossessing etc all in the name of Jesus, Tammy? Because they were doing so for The Father or for YHWH? We know through the stories of the Jewish religions, that YHWH used such methods. Jesus, on the other hand promoted another type of method altogether.

Christ (not the OT, not religion) reveals His Father to us as His Father truly is, yes... but His Father is the Most Holy One of Israel (His name being written as YHWH - since there were no vowels - in the OT).

The Christian religion has made it appear that way,

No, the words of Christ and the scriptures (Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets) state exactly what I wrote. "Christianity" did not create those scriptures; "Christianity" did not dictate whom the Jews claimed as their God.

Christianity is viewed as an abomination by the religious Jews.

What does that have to do with what I just said?

but as I have already adequately shown, Jesus was not saying that the religious Jews idea of The Creator, was correct. He was pointing out that while they claimed to follow The Creator, they were most definitely NOT. They did not know The Creator. What they followed after was an image of The Creator which was pretty much totally distorted from reality.

None of this alters the fact that Christ said his Father is the One whom the Jews claimed as their God. That does not have to mean that they knew His Father [YHWH] or that all their ideas about His Father were correct.

Nor does it follow that the Christian religion teaching Christians about the nature of The Creator is correct either. Certainly it attempted to model The Father in the image of YHWH...that was part of the scrambling I mentioned.

I never claimed "Christianity" (the organized and institutionalized religion) teaches Christians the nature of the Creator. Christ - not religion - is the One who reveals the Father as the Father truly is.

Christianity took up the same practice as the religious Jews had done, as it too developed into a religion.

Again, this does not alter the fact that Christ said His Father is the One whom the Jews claimed as their God.

Well now we have two major examples of how modelling The Creator on the image of YHWH leads to no good Tammy. Honestly I do not understand why you would think it necessary to argue so fervently for YHWH being The Father. The track record is evidence enough that such modelling results in corruption.

Perhaps you think this because you are the one believing everything that religion or the bible states about [YHWH]... instead of looking to Christ to see His Father (the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH) as His Father truly is?

This is why I argue that Jesus was putting the record straight.

Christ was putting the record straight - including about His Father [YHWH].

A - I addressed a specific point. Nothing more.

B - Christ also stated that they did not know His Father (in the exact same verses under discussion), but that does not take away from His statement that His Father is the One whom the Jews claim as their God.

His Father is [YHWH].

You are free to believe that as you will Tammy. That is the wide road. Matthew 7:13

Following Christ and remaining in His word, is not the wide road, William. If I were to believe and follow any other person or religion instead of Christ, then I would have stumbled off the narrow path and onto the wide road.

Yet here you are supporting something which taught you to support it and see things that way.

[/quote]

I am just listening to Christ and remaining in Him.

So I will remain in Christ and His word, and follow Him. He is the Truth. He is the Way. He is the One who leads His sheep (on the narrow path), to LIFE.

But you think Jesus was referring to The Creator [The Father] as YHWH.

As Christ has taught, yes.

When someone such as yourself claims that Jesus is their "Lord" and they follow after him,

Well I don't say "jesus". My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One of JAH.

that is their prerogative of course,

Indeed.

but I can remain neutral in regard to such claims, preferring to see what Jesus has to say about it on the day...

And that is your prerogative.

and personally, I would refrain from such claims myself just on account of Matthew 7:21.

What you should or should not refrain from is not for me to say. I will just state that Matt 7:21 does not preclude a person from calling Christ "Lord", certainly not if He is their Lord. He simply states that not everyone who calls Him "Lord" will enter the Kingdom of heaven (only the one who does the will of His Father in heaven).



Peace again to you.

[Tcg]

That what Jesus taught in private... "If every one of those things he taught were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." words to that effect...

The passage you are referring to does not teach what you suggest:

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

It mentions the many things Jesus did not the many things he taught and there is no mention of these actions being done in private.


Tcg

Doing involves many things. Including teaching. Since we know Jesus did things and taught things, it is reasonable to assume that he taught these many things as that was part of his mission in relation to those who followed him closely.
And there is mention of Jesus teaching things in private and that these things he taught, were different from that which he taught publicly. Matthew 13:10 ...

None of this changes the fact that the verse you attempted to use to support your claim doesn't support it. No mention of teaching. No mention of "in private." Nothing to support your theory which probably explains why you have shifted to another verse to salvage your theory.


Tcg

[William]

That what Jesus taught in private... "If every one of those things he taught were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." words to that effect...

The passage you are referring to does not teach what you suggest:

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

It mentions the many things Jesus did not the many things he taught and there is no mention of these actions being done in private.


Tcg

Doing involves many things. Including teaching. Since we know Jesus did things and taught things, it is reasonable to assume that he taught these many things as that was part of his mission in relation to those who followed him closely.
And there is mention of Jesus teaching things in private and that these things he taught, were different from that which he taught publicly. Matthew 13:10 ...

None of this changes the fact that the verse you attempted to use to support your claim doesn't support it. No mention of teaching. No mention of "in private." Nothing to support your theory which probably explains why you have shifted to another verse to salvage your theory.


Tcg

Are you arguing that we have no other information regarding the activities of Jesus

[Tcg]

That what Jesus taught in private... "If every one of those things he taught were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." words to that effect...

The passage you are referring to does not teach what you suggest:

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

It mentions the many things Jesus did not the many things he taught and there is no mention of these actions being done in private.


Tcg

Doing involves many things. Including teaching. Since we know Jesus did things and taught things, it is reasonable to assume that he taught these many things as that was part of his mission in relation to those who followed him closely.
And there is mention of Jesus teaching things in private and that these things he taught, were different from that which he taught publicly. Matthew 13:10 ...

None of this changes the fact that the verse you attempted to use to support your claim doesn't support it. No mention of teaching. No mention of "in private." Nothing to support your theory which probably explains why you have shifted to another verse to salvage your theory.


Tcg

Are you arguing that we have no other information regarding the activities of Jesus

No. I've demonstrated that the verse you referenced doesn't state what you thought it did and therefore doesn't support your theory.


Tcg

[William]

That what Jesus taught in private... "If every one of those things he taught were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." words to that effect...

The passage you are referring to does not teach what you suggest:

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

It mentions the many things Jesus did not the many things he taught and there is no mention of these actions being done in private.


Tcg

Doing involves many things. Including teaching. Since we know Jesus did things and taught things, it is reasonable to assume that he taught these many things as that was part of his mission in relation to those who followed him closely.
And there is mention of Jesus teaching things in private and that these things he taught, were different from that which he taught publicly. Matthew 13:10 ...

None of this changes the fact that the verse you attempted to use to support your claim doesn't support it. No mention of teaching. No mention of "in private." Nothing to support your theory which probably explains why you have shifted to another verse to salvage your theory.


Tcg

Are you arguing that we have no other information regarding the activities of Jesus

No. I've demonstrated that the verse you referenced doesn't state what you thought it did and therefore doesn't support your theory.


Tcg

Then you are incorrect. Since You are not arguing that We have no other information regarding the activities of Jesus, the information we do have and I reference, is supporting my theory.

I look at it in another way. Rather than how the Beloved Disciple uses books as an analogy, I will use the Earth in relation to the rest of the Universe, as a similar analogy for what John was expressing to those interested.

Your 'demonstration' is not even in the Field of Play, in that regard, and is dismissible for that.

[Tcg]

That what Jesus taught in private... "If every one of those things he taught were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." words to that effect...

The passage you are referring to does not teach what you suggest:

John 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

It mentions the many things Jesus did not the many things he taught and there is no mention of these actions being done in private.


Tcg

Doing involves many things. Including teaching. Since we know Jesus did things and taught things, it is reasonable to assume that he taught these many things as that was part of his mission in relation to those who followed him closely.
And there is mention of Jesus teaching things in private and that these things he taught, were different from that which he taught publicly. Matthew 13:10 ...

None of this changes the fact that the verse you attempted to use to support your claim doesn't support it. No mention of teaching. No mention of "in private." Nothing to support your theory which probably explains why you have shifted to another verse to salvage your theory.


Tcg

Are you arguing that we have no other information regarding the activities of Jesus

No. I've demonstrated that the verse you referenced doesn't state what you thought it did and therefore doesn't support your theory.


Tcg

Then you are incorrect.

I am perfectly correct. The only way you could prove me incorrect would be to show where the verse you referred to mentions both teaching and privacy. It mentions neither and therefore you can't show the facts I have presented to be in error.


Tcg

[PinSeeker]

The bible tells me so. I am slightly surprised that you as a Christian do not know the sentence I used is from that source.

What in the Bible "tells you so?"

That what Jesus taught in private... "If every one of those things he taught were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." words to that effect...

I see, so admittedly, none of your statements or assertions are actually quotes or paraphrases from Jesus (or anywhere in the Bible itself). Thanks for proving my point.

By the way, you're referring to John 21:25, here, which says, "Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." Yes, He did many other things than what John actually wrote. But I don't read that to say that he actually taught anything differently than what is documented by John (or Matthew, Mark, or Luke, for that matter).

And still, you never even attempted to answer my question. You just evaded it. Which, like I said, is answer enough.

Jesus/Jehovah fluffed up and thus had to rectify. He hastily cursed the creation without getting all the information required to make a better judgement.

I'll ignore this;

Most Christians do. But it remains a biblical fact, anyway.

Well, yes, most Christians do ignore blatant non-biblical statements, and I'm following suit here. Maybe it is what you think is biblical fact, and that's fine with me.

The statement "Jesus/Jehovah fluffed up and thus had to rectify. He hastily cursed the creation without getting all the information required to make a better judgement." is blatantly biblical, rather than not.

No, it's either an opinion -- yours, and maybe others -- or it's a gross misunderstanding. Either way...

I am just following Christian Mythology in relation to the idea of The Creator as written in the Garden of Eden story.

Well no, you're not. You're twisting Christian "mythology" and making it into a caricature of what it is. You're not alone in that, certainly, but it is what it is. Like I say, suit yourself.

Well, you have your opinion and I have mine.

Agreed. Thank you for finally admitting to that.

I will stick with my opinion that Jesus taught about a wholly different idea of The Creator than those of religion teach.

Right on, dude. You're your own person; suit yourself.

Grace and peace to you.

[Revelations won]

Dear Tam,

Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Now Tam, I ask you, do you agree with that which is taught in Acts 4:10- 12?

Kind regards,
RW

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to Revelations won in post #129]

Yes. I think I may have said so, previously.

What about you? Will you answer the question I asked you now?

(from post 50, 87, 92, 95)
viewtopic.php?p=1022654#p1022654
viewtopic.php?p=1029853#p1029853

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to tam in post #130]

Well I'm not Revelations Won, obviously, but I'll answer it. You asked, "How can they be the same person, if YHWH is speaking to Christ Jaheshua?" My answer is thus?

The question itself is leading (misleading), intentionally or not. I believe it to be unintentional, for what that's worth. Having said that:

Psalm 110:1 references the preexistence and deity of Christ (not sure you would agree with this, but true nevertheless). Yet, in the same text we see a clear distinction between the two Lords mentioned (we can agree on this, I'm sure). “The LORD” here speaks to a “Lord” who is the Son of God, and the fact that two Lords can speak to one another indicates the presence of two personal relations or subsistences (we agree on this, too), but the subtlety of the text here is that both of these subsistences are fully God[/u]. There is an eternal, personal distinction between God the Son and God the Father (but not in terms of Their essential attributes). In light of the full biblical witness, we may extrapolate this distinction to the person of the Holy Spirit as well, for Scripture in several places refers to all three Persons in a manner that assumes distinctions between Them (Matt. 28:18–20, John 14:15-31).

So, there is a subtlety to the text of Psalm 110:1 and Psalm 110 as a whole that suggests a very tight correlation between the Lord Yahweh and the “Lord” of David. Further, Psalm 110 is very closely related to the psalms that follow it. These two prominent figures (Yahweh and the “Lord” of David) are given their own individual poetic focus in the subsequent psalms, namely Psalm 111 and Psalm 112 respectively. Whereas Psalm 111 is a hymnic praise of the Lord Yahweh, Psalm 112 is a praise of the human king, specifically David’s “lord.” The near-identical descriptions used of the Lord Yahweh in Psalm 111 and the human king of Psalm 112 give the impression of and speak to the literary union between the “lord” of David and the divine Yahweh. A similar type of close association between the two can be seen in Psalm 113.

We should not miss the forest for the trees. Or the trees for the forest.

Grace and peace to all.