"In the beginning God created ...."

[William]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

Often Christians argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation.

What is the difference between existing within a Reality Simulation and existing within a Creation?

[The Tanager]

Indeed. It is when applied this way. What word would you think is a synonym for creation as it is used to describe "God Created"?

I could use terms like design, forming, making, fashioning, etc. but these often pick up elements of the idea of creation without doing so entirely. In that it can be helpful to clarify what one means by 'creation'. I don't have a well-planned definition worked out.

Isn't there a difference between creating something for the purpose of studying and creating something for other purposes that could end up being studied?

Is there?

While you think about an example re this universe, I will simply accept it that the universe was created for a purpose.

{Bear in mind too - that "in relation to those experiencing said creation," does not only apply to those within said simulation. I read somewhere that others were present to witness the creation of said creation...

My wife and I have three kids. We didn't have them in order to study them but we could study them. This doesn't mean they weren't created for a purpose. Our purpose was to share our love and joy and goodness with others. This could be done without having kids, of course, but kids is one way to do it. Many Christians I know see God's purpose in creating this universe much the same for those "within" and those "without".

[William]

Indeed. It is when applied this way. What word would you think is a synonym for creation as it is used to describe "God Created"?

I could use terms like design, forming, making, fashioning, etc. but these often pick up elements of the idea of creation without doing so entirely. In that it can be helpful to clarify what one means by 'creation'. I don't have a well-planned definition worked out.

So we are back to the basics. Something made in which to study [collect data]. No point in poking at its parts to find 'definition' ...just see it as the one thing which it is. .."Creation"

Isn't there a difference between creating something for the purpose of studying and creating something for other purposes that could end up being studied?

Is there?

While you think about an example re this universe, I will simply accept it that the universe was created for a purpose.

{Bear in mind too - that "in relation to those experiencing said creation," does not only apply to those within said simulation. I read somewhere that others were present to witness the creation of said creation...

My wife and I have three kids. We didn't have them in order to study them but we could study them. This doesn't mean they weren't created for a purpose. Our purpose was to share our love and joy and goodness with others. This could be done without having kids, of course, but kids is one way to do it.

Your kids are part of the one creation. Neither you nor you wife could sit down and mindfully create children. Largely that part is the task of the algorithms involved in relation to the human form. [Avatar]

Many Christians I know see God's purpose in creating this universe much the same for those "within" and those "without".

To show and to experience...Those outside this universe are said to be able to watch and learn and in some cases interact with those within said universe...Christian mythology supports this idea...

Physicist creates AI algorithm that may prove reality is a simulation

[The Tanager]

So we are back to the basics. Something made in which to study [collect data]. No point in poking at its parts to find 'definition' ...just see it as the one thing which it is. .."Creation"

Many Christians do not see this universe as "something made in which to study [collect data]." That is why they argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation, where 'Creation' is not confined to being made "in which to study [collect data]." That's logical, even if untrue.

To show and to experience...Those outside this universe are said to be able to watch and learn and in some cases interact with those within said universe...Christian mythology supports this idea...

I don't think traditional Christian 'mythology' does but I'm always open to hearing the case for it and sharing my thoughts on why I believe the case is strong or not.

Physicist creates AI algorithm that may prove reality is a simulation

Do you think the algorithm does prove reality is a simulation. If so, then I'm always open to hearing the case for it and sharing my thoughts on if I agree or not.

[William]

So we are back to the basics. Something made in which to study [collect data]. No point in poking at its parts to find 'definition' ...just see it as the one thing which it is. .."Creation"

Many Christians do not see this universe as "something made in which to study [collect data]." That is why they argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation, where 'Creation' is not confined to being made "in which to study [collect data]." That's logical, even if untrue.

What do many Christians want? Logic or truth?

To show and to experience...Those outside this universe are said to be able to watch and learn and in some cases interact with those within said universe...Christian mythology supports this idea...

I don't think traditional Christian 'mythology' does but I'm always open to hearing the case for it and sharing my thoughts on why I believe the case is strong or not.

God asked Job, “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).

Tradition has it that Christians believe that angels were witness to the creation of this universe and were happy about it.

One can ascertain from the above verse that it was created for a purpose which made these creatures happy. Since tradition also has it that angels are intelligent and creative, one can understand the correlation.

[The Tanager]

What do many Christians want? Logic or truth?

As far as I can tell, not all that is logical is true but all that is true is logical. Search for truth and you'll get logic thrown in. Many Christians want that.

God asked Job, “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).

Tradition has it that Christians believe that angels were witness to the creation of this universe and were happy about it.

One can ascertain from the above verse that it was created for a purpose which made these creatures happy.

I absolutely agree.

Since tradition also has it that angels are intelligent and creative, one can understand the correlation.

Tradition also has it that angels are capable of love. Yes, it is logically possible that the purpose of creation could be for beings to study something, but it is not the only possible correlation. Yes, the angels could be happy that they had something to study or they could be happy that these beings could share in the community of love that they share with each other and God. The immediate context of Job 38:4,7 doesn't seem to address that question either way. So, two questions. Feel free to address both or focus on one over the other.

1. Where in Christian 'mythology' is the study-correlation made or supported?

2. The wider, more important question, considering all sources of evidence, where is support for the study-correlation over against other ones like the love-correlation?

[William]

Are you sugesting that the angels were happy with the creation of our univrse because they now could share their love with another created species.

[PinSeeker]

What do many Christians want? Logic or truth?

As far as I can tell, not all that is logical is true but all that is true is logical. Search for truth and you'll get logic thrown in. Many Christians want that.

God asked Job, “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).

Tradition has it that Christians believe that angels were witness to the creation of this universe and were happy about it.

One can ascertain from the above verse that it was created for a purpose which made these creatures happy.

I absolutely agree.

Since tradition also has it that angels are intelligent and creative, one can understand the correlation.

Tradition also has it that angels are capable of love. Yes, it is logically possible that the purpose of creation could be for beings to study something, but it is not the only possible correlation. Yes, the angels could be happy that they had something to study or they could be happy that these beings could share in the community of love that they share with each other and God. The immediate context of Job 38:4,7 doesn't seem to address that question either way. So, two questions. Feel free to address both or focus on one over the other.

1. Where in Christian 'mythology' is the study-correlation made or supported?

2. The wider, more important question, considering all sources of evidence, where is support for the study-correlation over against other ones like the love-correlation?

Thank you, Tanager.

What I would say to that passage in Job -- specifically concerning Job 38:7, is that yes, the angels (really, the heavenly host, even creation itself; all those around and in view of God's throne) were "happy," but that mere "happiness" falls far short of the mark.

First, they are all in view of God's throne in worship of Him (again, the heavenly beings and creation -- specifically the heavens ("In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1) -- itself. We also read elsewhere (Psalm 19:1) that "the heavens declare the glory of God." This is not to say that the heavens literally speak (or shout), of course, but figuratively, they absolutely do.

Second, all is thus glorifying Him. The fact that they "shouted for joy" says, really, that they are overjoyed, and thankful, and glorying in the Lord for His goodness, His love, and His mighty works. In that way, it's an example of what we should do now, at least in spirit, and will for sure do later, in person. And this is portrayed several times in different ways throughout the Bible, from the Pentateuch through Revelation.

Grace and peace to all.

[William]

What do many Christians want? Logic or truth?

As far as I can tell, not all that is logical is true but all that is true is logical. Search for truth and you'll get logic thrown in. Many Christians want that.

God asked Job, “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation … and all the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4,7).

Tradition has it that Christians believe that angels were witness to the creation of this universe and were happy about it.

One can ascertain from the above verse that it was created for a purpose which made these creatures happy.

I absolutely agree.

Since tradition also has it that angels are intelligent and creative, one can understand the correlation.

Tradition also has it that angels are capable of love. Yes, it is logically possible that the purpose of creation could be for beings to study something, but it is not the only possible correlation. Yes, the angels could be happy that they had something to study or they could be happy that these beings could share in the community of love that they share with each other and God. The immediate context of Job 38:4,7 doesn't seem to address that question either way. So, two questions. Feel free to address both or focus on one over the other.

1. Where in Christian 'mythology' is the study-correlation made or supported?

2. The wider, more important question, considering all sources of evidence, where is support for the study-correlation over against other ones like the love-correlation?

Thank you, Tanager.

What I would say to that passage in Job -- specifically concerning Job 38:7, is that yes, the angels (really, the heavenly host, even creation itself; all those around and in view of God's throne) were "happy," but that mere "happiness" falls far short of the mark.

First, they are all in view of God's throne in worship of Him (again, the heavenly beings and creation -- specifically the heavens ("In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" Genesis 1:1) -- itself. We also read elsewhere (Psalm 19:1) that "the heavens declare the glory of God." This is not to say that the heavens literally speak (or shout), of course, but figuratively, they absolutely do.

Second, all is thus glorifying Him. The fact that they "shouted for joy" says, really, that they are overjoyed, and thankful, and glorying in the Lord for His goodness, His love, and His mighty works. In that way, it's an example of what we should do now, at least in spirit, and will for sure do later, in person. And this is portrayed several times in different ways throughout the Bible, from the Pentateuch through Revelation.

Grace and peace to all.

Importantly when the religious filters are removed we have something underneath it to examine.

The argument [ongoing] is that the mythology has within it clear enough indication that the creation of our particular universe [the one we are all currently experiencing] is simulated for the purpose of finding something out.

The tradition is that "all was not well in the heavenly realms" as per a democratic choice of 1 third of the sentient beings disagreeing with the imagery...tradition also has it that the reason was "jealousy" but was it really?

Point being, there was disagreement in which it was decided to create the physical universe so that it might be discovered therein. what the truth actually was.

And so The Creator made a simulated holographic universe in which The Creator could put consciousness into - and give that consciousness the impression that it "had a beginning"...and thus the angels rejoiced at the result...now they could - at least potentially - find out what the actual truth was...it looked promising enough to rejoice in...

[The Tanager]

Are you sugesting that the angels were happy with the creation of our univrse because they now could share their love with another created species.

At least in part, yes.

Point being, there was disagreement in which it was decided to create the physical universe so that it might be discovered therein. what the truth actually was.

Where is the Christian 'mythology' that speaks of this?

[William]

Are you sugesting that the angels were happy with the creation of our univrse because they now could share their love with another created species.

At least in part, yes.

Point being, there was disagreement in which it was decided to create the physical universe so that it might be discovered therein. what the truth actually was.

Where is the Christian 'mythology' that speaks of this?

On top of that which it hides...