"In the beginning God created ...."

[William]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

Often Christians argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation.

What is the difference between existing within a Reality Simulation and existing within a Creation?

[William]

I didn't say that any god said it. I said that the Bible say's it.

Yes, you said all that. And the Bible -- and thus God -- says absolutely nothing about any "simulation."

au contraire The bible and thus the bible's god does so. It [the physical universe] is referred to as a creation.

Which is the same thing as a simulation. Potato/Potato

If Christian mythology is merely something silly, and therefore not worthy even of serious discussion, much less debate...then one can dispense with the idea we live in a creation/simulation and get on with being sensible.

But that's a big 'if,' though, William, is it not?

For some it is, and requires knowing.

It's a heart issue. Not to discount the brain/mind, of course, but the brain/mind follow the heart. And converting hearts is God's business, not man's. And it will happen -- or not happen -- in every man, all according to God's perfect, immutable, unassailable will, and in His time. As for Christians, whether they realize it or not, the struggle -- the war -- is internal.

With -of course - the added necessity of the external in which the internal can be acted out upon/within...the creation/simulation. One cannot do the one without the other...the internal begets what is expressed into the simulation by each individual involved within the simulation

To put off the old man and put on the new, as Paul says. But this war is only fought -- again, internally -- if God has actually done His work in causing that to happen... if He has begun a good work in that person. But the good news about that is, if God does begin that work in the individual, He will -- will -- bring it to completion. He is the author and the perfecter/finisher of our faith.

And obviously this requires a simulation in order to make it so. That is the purpose of this universe, according to the mythology, is it not?

Grapes and peas to you.

[PinSeeker]

I didn't say that any god said it. I said that the Bible say's it.

Yes, you said all that. And the Bible -- and thus God -- says absolutely nothing about any "simulation."

au contraire The bible and thus the bible's god does so. It [the physical universe] is referred to as a creation. Which is the same thing as a simulation. Potato/Potato

Nope. You're the one turning what God says upside down, so to speak. Which can't be done, of course. But anyway, therefore, not "au contraire," but rather truly, neither the Bible or the Bible's God says or implies anything about a "simulation," as I so clearly stated -- because the Bible (God) does. For something to be a simulation, it has to be simulating something. What is this universe simulating, William? No need to answer (although I'm sure you will); it's really a rhetorical question conveying the inanity of this whole stream of "thought." You're whole premise is ridiculous.

...obviously this requires a simulation in order to make it so. That is the purpose of this universe, according to the mythology, is it not?

Well no, it's not. LOL!!! See what I'm saying? You really have no idea what the Bible even says, really. If you want to debate God's Word, then, you know: go take a little time, and then come back when you have actually gained some modicum of understanding. I mean that's up to you, of course, but that would be my charge to you.

Grace and peace to you, my friend.

[otseng]

You really have no idea what the Bible even says, really. If you want to debate God's Word, then, you know: go take a little time, and then come back when you have actually gained some modicum of understanding. I mean that's up to you, of course, but that would be my charge to you.

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[William]

I didn't say that any god said it. I said that the Bible say's it.

Yes, you said all that. And the Bible -- and thus God -- says absolutely nothing about any "simulation."

au contraire The bible and thus the bible's god does so. It [the physical universe] is referred to as a creation. Which is the same thing as a simulation. Potato/Potato

What is this universe simulating, William?

That is not really the right question PinSeeker. Obviously there are images made in the likeness of an alternate reality if alternate realities exist..."as in heaven so on earth" etc...

The real questions you should be asking have to do with how the bible god views our universe, and how he is said to be able to interact with it in various ways.
Obviously this shows us [if true] that the god sees our reality as a simulation in which he can do things with, such as;

He can make Adam and Eve think they are talking with a Wise Serpent.

He can make the lions think that Daniel is non-edible.

He can make a group of men fishing think that Jesus was walking on water.

He can make Saul think he was encountering a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus

He can even uplift the beloved disciple John and give John a fully immersed experience of yet another simulation which said disciple then reports back to other humans about his experience in that alternate reality.

[He can also give William [and others] a few experience in order to show William a thing or two about what William thinks/assumes about reality in relation to what actually is reality.]

So IF the creator can do as Christians claim, THEN the creator has to see the truth that his creation is a "simulation" which was created for a purpose.
Which then has me asking "if your god sees our reality as not really real, why would Christians insist that it is really real?

[PinSeeker]

That is not really the right question PinSeeker.

In your opinion. Sure. I understand; you have made very clear what you think the right questions are.

Obviously there are images made in the likeness of an alternate reality if alternate realities exist..."as in heaven so on earth" etc...

Herein is much of the disagreement between you and me, William. And herein lies the impetus behind my question, which you just stated was "really not quite the right question," and then you seem to be turning right around and asking that very question: What is this "reality" that we live in simulating? What is the "real reality" that this "simulated reality" a simulation of? Do you see what I'm saying? You dismiss it, but then turn right around and ask it. Which is, quite frankly -- no offense intended -- a funny, or curious, or (I'm not sure of the right word to use there) kind of an perplexing thing to me.

I'm going to come back around to the "as heaven so on earth" thing at the end of this post, because that's well worth at least briefly explaining and expounding upon. Read on...

The real questions you should be asking have to do with how the bible god views our universe, and how he is said to be able to interact with it in various ways.

Well, honestly, I don't appreciate you telling me what I "should" be doing; I don't do that in any interaction I have. But fine; I'm able to ignore that. But I do agree that those are very important questions for one to ask and come to grips with.

Obviously this shows us [if true] that the god sees our reality as a simulation in which he can do things with...

Again, this is your opinion, and how you see things. And that's fine. I think it's quite misguided, and you can dismiss that as my opinion, which is also quite fine by me.

He can make Adam and Eve think they are talking with a Wise Serpent.. He can make the lions think that Daniel is non-edible.,, He can make a group of men fishing think that Jesus was walking on water... He can make Saul think he was encountering a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus... He can even uplift the beloved disciple John and give John a fully immersed experience of yet another simulation which said disciple then reports back to other humans about his experience in that alternate reality... [He can also give William [and others] a few experience in order to show William a thing or two about what William thinks/assumes about reality in relation to what actually is reality.]

Ah yes, God can "make people think all these things," as if they are just hallucinations, or... something... As if what He has said occurred didn't really happen at all. Yes, I hear you.

So IF the creator can do as Christians claim...

You see, here again is the problem. It's not that the Creator "can do as Christians claim," it's that the Creator did what He said He did, that what He said happened really happened -- in reality, in history. It's a matter of belief -- of God-given faith, which, as God Himself defines it, is an objective assurance (not a mere wish, or blind hope) -- which is to say that they take Him at His word, which many do not do. If anyone claims it, it is God, in His word.

...THEN the creator has to see the truth that his creation is a "simulation" which was created for a purpose.

Yeah, so again, the "then" cannot follow, because the "if" itself is terribly flawed. As I previously said.

Which then has me asking "if your god sees our reality as not really real, why would Christians insist that it is really real?

Yeah, so again, you're asking this question from a terribly flawed premise, as I have said.

Okay so back to the "as in heaven so on earth" thing. To somehow see this as proof that there is a real reality that our "reality" is only a simulation of is quite ridiculous. What you're quoting -- in some form, at least -- is part of what we call the Lord's prayer (perhaps you know this full well), His instruction to us regarding how we should pray. Specifically, whether intentionally or not, you're referring to Matthew 6:10, where Christ exhorts us to, among other things, pray for God's kingdom to come, His will be done (which should be seen as a clarification of what it means for God's kingdom to truly come -- on earth as it is in heaven. This is really an abstract, but of course very real, concept. So again, Christians are called to pray and work for the continual advance of God's kingdom on earth. The presence of God's kingdom in this age refers to the reign of Christ in the hearts and lives of believers, and to the reigning presence of Christ in His body, the church -- so that they increasingly reflect His love, obey Him, honor Him, do good for all people (regardless whether they are Christians or not), and proclaim the good news of the kingdom. This all speaks of God's will, which is now perfectly experienced in heaven and certainly will be, eventually, here on earth in its fullness when God's kingdom comes in its final form, when Christ returns in power and glory at the end of the age.

So, to make a long story short, rather than a "real reality" and/or "simulated reality," the distinction is actually:

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* reality in the present age (what we call temporal)

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...as opposed to:

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* the same reality set right -- in perfect accord with God's will -- in the age to come (what we call eternal... eternity).

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The distinction is not between any sort of "alternate reality" or "simulation" that we experience, but rather that this present reality will finally be repaired, so to speak, or made right -- again, in perfect accord with God's will. And this is how it was really created, made to be, and was from the beginning (God pronounced it all, in Genesis 1, "very good"), but that we ourselves, in our sin, have made terribly wrong since then. This is what Christians "claim" -- really, proclaim -- but, as I said, only because God has told us in His Word, and we believe Him; we take Him at His Word.

That's my final word here. I mean this as respectfully and gracefully as possible; I'm out. Grace and peace to you, William.

[William]

Ah yes, God can "make people think all these things," as if they are just hallucinations, or... something... As if what He has said occurred didn't really happen at all. Yes, I hear you.

No. I do not think you do...

So IF the creator can do as Christians claim...

You see, here again is the problem. It's not that the Creator "can do as Christians claim," it's that the Creator did what He said He did, that what He said happened really happened -- in reality, in history. It's a matter of belief -- of God-given faith, which, as God Himself defines it, is an objective assurance (not a mere wish, or blind hope) -- which is to say that they take Him at His word, which many do not do. If anyone claims it, it is God, in His word.

That is where you are straying in your understanding of what I am suggesting. I am not suggesting any hallucination occurred. Or that what was written did not occur.

Rather I am saying that [due to my own experiences] I understand full well that the possibly did occur. They are just 'alternate experiences' experienced as 'real'

I wrote this today. It may help clarify for you how I see things in regard to The Creator.

We are left with one thing certain. That any type of enquiry first has to have something real in which the enquiry itself can be expressed from.
In that, the only real 'thing' is that which is making the enquiry.

IF 'things' didn't exist in which to bounce off [make enquiry of] THEN what would one have to enquire about, except ones self?

Even if that which makes the enquiry is within a simulation, this does not mean that it is hallucinating.

Now IF we call this 'thing' which is doing the enquiring, "The Creator", THEN it becomes the source of everything else. [that which is being enquired about]

In that if we call everything else "The Creation" wherein does The Creator get what we in The Creation refer to as "materials" in which to do the creating with?

One answer is that the materials [as we experience them within said physical Universe primarily Planet Earth] are not 'gotten' from anywhere by The Creator, but are essentially The Mind of The Creator.

Therefore we could ascertain from this, that The Creators Mind has voids/blank areas in which The Creator imagines into existence "things" and these are referred to as "Creations" "Simulations" "Hallucinations" etc by the individuate consciousnesses within said creations, which experience these "things" as "real".

From this we could also ascertain that the individuate consciousnesses [you and I etc] are not imagined and thus created by The Creator, but are actually [altogether] the consciousness [that which enquires] which is The Creator...essentially we are all [consciousness] The Creator experiencing The Creator's Creation.

[PinSeeker]

They are just 'alternate experiences' experienced as 'real'

LOL! You're... an interesting person, William. Grace and peace to you.

[William]

They are just 'alternate experiences' experienced as 'real'

You're... an interesting person, William. Grace and peace to you.

Grapes and Peas Pin

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #1]

I have no problem with people using the terms as synonyms, but I would hazard a guess that many Christians don't view those as synonymous terms. Using some of the definitions of 'simulation' from Oxford Languages we have:

1. imitation of a situation or process
2. the action of pretending; deception
3. the production of a computer model of something, especially for the purpose of study

I'm not sure many Christians would see God's creation as an imitation of something else, an act of pretending, deception, or a model of something for the purpose of study.

[bjs1]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

So, what is the nature of the reality that's being simulated?


.

The thread is not investigating the nature of the reality that's being simulated. The thread is investigating the Christian claim that our current reality is a Creation, but is not a Simulation.

Miles’s question seems significant. Before we can address the claim that we live in a creation but not a simulation, we first need to know what the difference is between reality and a simulation. Until you answer the question there is no way to move forward in this debate.