"In the beginning God created ...."

[William]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

Often Christians argue that we do not exist within a Simulated Reality while maintaining that we exist within a Creation.

What is the difference between existing within a Reality Simulation and existing within a Creation?

[William]

[William]

Is the discovery of Mathematics indicative that we exist within a Reality Simulation.

From another thread;

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #166]

I think what we are trying to say is that when you are speaking about invented math you are speaking about things which are invented rather than discovered. That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented.

True, I wouldn't argue that math is invented by simply asserting that it's invented.

This is not what I argued. I wrote "That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented"

Math is invented because when we look at the history of math, math develops alongside the development of civilization.

IF we exist within a Simulated Reality THEN history and development of civilization are part of that. The math I am referring to which points to evidence we may exist within a Reality Simulation [or "Creation" as Christians refer to it] is that which was not invented [brought into the Simulation through human manipulation of the physical stuff of the simulation] but was already present as part of the original design of the Reality Simulation.
This is to say that the Simulation itself is designed to make that possible. Human Beings can invent ideas and in many cases, bring those ideas into the Reality Simulation by creating objects that otherwise did not exist.

Nobody, for example, argues that computers were discovered. So why contend that math is discovered?

Computers are one of the things which humans brought into the Creation, using the stuff of the creation to do so. [Specifically the stuff of the planet Earth.] In essence humans used their understanding of the way the brain works [in relation to creation] in order to find ways in which they could copy, and said computers were invented.
However, the brain was the computer which already existed as part of the original simulation. So computers already existed, just not the ones which humans later invented.

Also, there simply is nowhere for math to be prior to its alleged discovery, so its silly to claim that math is discovered.

Yes there is. The human brain for starters. These existed before humans discovered them. Humans did not understand prior to this, that they were using biological computers in order to experience the Reality Simulation they existed within.

Some math was discovered and that math has to do with what humans have not invented. The "real world" in which humans find themselves to be within.

Where was math prior to its discovery?

In the human brain. But also within the structure of the overall Reality Simulation. [Physical Universe/"Creation"] One recognized the other.

No math-is-discovered advocate seems able to answer this very important question.

I am happy that you see the question is very important and glad to be able to offer you a sensible answer.

And my further argument regarding this is that the discovered math is what can be see to be evidence that the real world is perhaps a Reality Simulation [something which can be consciously experienced as real/a reality].

I don't see the connection between discovery of math and the world as a reality simulation. Why can't math be invented in a reality simulation?

It can be in this one. But the argument is that not ALL math has been the invention of humans. IF this is a Creation we exist within, THEN we should be able to recognize any and all evidence which supports the notion.
Obviously humans are able to invent things which [as far as we know] did not exist in the Creation/Simulation prior to them being invented.
Show me an invention which is not based upon something which the inventors did not get their ideas from observing and copying what already existed in the Reality Simulation.
The circle perhaps?

If ALL math were a human invention , then it would be more difficult to say that math is evidence of us existing within a creation.

Well, then it's more difficult to say that math is evidence of our living in a "creation." Maybe math is invented, and there is no reality simulation that we live in. You seem to be arguing that since you think reality is simulated, then math must be discovered in order for you to be right about the simulation. In general, your logic goes like this:

I think A.
B is evidence for A.
Conclusion: B must be the case otherwise I'm wrong about A.

Of course, you could be wrong about A, and there is no B.

Allow me to conclude this post by pointing out that a realm for math waiting to be discovered is an idea cooked up by the Greek philosopher, Plato. It's obviously an idea that remains popular to this day.

My comment was in relation to the irony that Christians claim that we exist within a Creation, while they also deny that we exist within a Simulated Reality.

[PinSeeker]

My comment was in relation to the irony that Christians claim that we exist within a Creation, while they also deny that we exist within a Simulated Reality.

Well, I'm a Christian, and a quite conservative one at that, and I would say that the concept of a "simulated reality" is hogwash... silly. Yeah, people come up with all kinds of "stuff," Christians included.

Grace and peace to you.

[Miles]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

So, what is the nature of the reality that's being simulated?


.

[Paul of Tarsus]

Is the discovery of Mathematics indicative that we exist within a Reality Simulation.

From another thread;

[Replying to Paul of Tarsus in post #166]

I think what we are trying to say is that when you are speaking about invented math you are speaking about things which are invented rather than discovered. That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented.

True, I wouldn't argue that math is invented by simply asserting that it's invented.

This is not what I argued. I wrote "That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented"

That is what you said. You said it again.

IF we exist within a Simulated Reality THEN history and development of civilization are part of that. The math I am referring to which points to evidence we may exist within a Reality Simulation [or "Creation" as Christians refer to it] is that which was not invented [brought into the Simulation through human manipulation of the physical stuff of the simulation] but was already present as part of the original design of the Reality Simulation.
This is to say that the Simulation itself is designed to make that possible. Human Beings can invent ideas and in many cases, bring those ideas into the Reality Simulation by creating objects that otherwise did not exist.

Actually, even if we did live in such a "creation," the God or the simulator or whatever made the creation need not have invented math but could have left it up to us to invent math. So I don't see how any evidence for such a creation even if that creation is real would have anything to do with math being discovered or invented.

Computers are one of the things which humans brought into the Creation, using the stuff of the creation to do so. [Specifically the stuff of the planet Earth.] In essence humans used their understanding of the way the brain works [in relation to creation] in order to find ways in which they could copy, and said computers were invented.
However, the brain was the computer which already existed as part of the original simulation. So computers already existed, just not the ones which humans later invented.

Why not just conclude that our brains are the product of evolution, and we used our brains to invent mathematics?

Also, there simply is nowhere for math to be prior to its alleged discovery, so its silly to claim that math is discovered.

Yes there is. The human brain for starters. These existed before humans discovered them. Humans did not understand prior to this, that they were using biological computers in order to experience the Reality Simulation they existed within.

I don't think that you can discover anything in your mind because all your thoughts are the product of your brain. Your brain makes mathematical ideas like any other kind of ideas.

Show me an invention which is not based upon something which the inventors did not get their ideas from observing and copying what already existed in the Reality Simulation.
The circle perhaps?

I suppose all inventions have been inspired by nature, but they are inventions, nevertheless. The circle, for instance, no doubt was inspired by circular objects. Circles are still inventions, though.

My comment was in relation to the irony that Christians claim that we exist within a Creation, while they also deny that we exist within a Simulated Reality.

I think it takes faith to believe in either one.

In conclusion, all I see you doing is making a case for a wacky idea you appear to want to believe. To believe in that idea you claim that math's alleged discovery, a dubious idea as I have demonstrated, is evidence for your "reality simulation." Your supposed evidence, mathematical discovery, is no more established than what you want to prove. It's analogous to a person wanting to prove Bigfoot exists by claiming fairies as evidence!

[William]

"Anyone who thinks we exist within a creation is also saying that we exist within a Reality Simulation."

So, what is the nature of the reality that's being simulated?


.

The thread is not investigating the nature of the reality that's being simulated. The thread is investigating the Christian claim that our current reality is a Creation, but is not a Simulation.

[William]

My comment was in relation to the irony that Christians claim that we exist within a Creation, while they also deny that we exist within a Simulated Reality.

Well, I'm a Christian, and a quite conservative one at that, and I would say that the concept of a "simulated reality" is hogwash... silly. Yeah, people come up with all kinds of "stuff," Christians included.

Grace and peace to you.

Thanks for that. Sure, I am not denying that there are those rare folk calling themselves Christians, who do not believe that this universe is a Creation. This thread is focused upon the bulk of Christians who believe that they do indeed exist within a created universe.

Grapes and Peas to you.

[William]

I think what we are trying to say is that when you are speaking about invented math you are speaking about things which are invented rather than discovered. That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented.

True, I wouldn't argue that math is invented by simply asserting that it's invented.

This is not what I argued. I wrote "That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented"

That is what you said. You said it again.

IF we exist within a Simulated Reality THEN history and development of civilization are part of that. The math I am referring to which points to evidence we may exist within a Reality Simulation [or "Creation" as Christians refer to it] is that which was not invented [brought into the Simulation through human manipulation of the physical stuff of the simulation] but was already present as part of the original design of the Reality Simulation.
This is to say that the Simulation itself is designed to make that possible. Human Beings can invent ideas and in many cases, bring those ideas into the Reality Simulation by creating objects that otherwise did not exist.

Please bold the part where you think I said it 'again'.

Actually, even if we did live in such a "creation," ...

No I wrote creation, not "creation". I am referring to what most Christians claim, and when they claim it, they don't use quotation marks.
The thread heading does not say "In the beginning God "created" ...." and the Bible does not place the word in quotation marks either.

...the God or the simulator or whatever made the creation need not have invented math

...

Perhaps the God or the simulator or whatever made the creation did need to have invented math. But that is niether not an argument pertaining to the thread topic.

...but could have left it up to us to invent math.

Yes. I am not claiming that humans don't invent math. I am claiming that they didn't invent ALL math. I even made sure to emphasize the wore "ALL" so it had less chance of being missed.

"That in itself is interesting but does not mean that ALL math is invented."

You appear to have missed that part of my argument.

So I don't see how any evidence for such a creation even if that creation is real would have anything to do with math being discovered or invented.

Then I will continue to try and explain to you that the fact that math is imbedded into this reality we are experiencing, is evidence that we do exist within a Reality Simulation.

As one famous Christian wrote;

"For The Creators invisible attributes, namely, the Creators eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made."

Computers are one of the things which humans brought into the Creation, using the stuff of the creation to do so. [Specifically the stuff of the planet Earth.] In essence humans used their understanding of the way the brain works [in relation to creation] in order to find ways in which they could copy, and said computers were invented.
However, the brain was the computer which already existed as part of the original simulation. So computers already existed, just not the ones which humans later invented.

Why not just conclude that our brains are the product of evolution, and we used our brains to invent mathematics?

Because that is what atheists believe and I am not an atheist. I am more along the lines of being an Agnostic Theist. "Theist" because, I lean toward the idea of us existing within a simulated reality and therefore acknowledge that this implies a creator.

More to the point, because most atheists think that the concept of a "Creation" is hogwash... silly.

I, however, do not think the idea is silly.

Also, there simply is nowhere for math to be prior to its alleged discovery, so its silly to claim that math is discovered.

Yes there is. The human brain for starters. These existed before humans discovered them. Humans did not understand prior to this, that they were using biological computers in order to experience the Reality Simulation they existed within.

I don't think that you can discover anything in your mind because all your thoughts are the product of your brain. Your brain makes mathematical ideas like any other kind of ideas.

Not what I was arguing. I argued that there are things within the creation which have always existed and human discovered them. Math was discovered [by humans] to exist within the fundamental nature of the creation [physical universe]. We can understand this math as 'coding' [algorithm] which is responsible for how the creation unfolds.

Show me an invention which is not based upon something which the inventors did not get their ideas from observing and copying what already existed in the Reality Simulation.
The circle perhaps?

I suppose all inventions have been inspired by nature, but they are inventions, nevertheless. The circle, for instance, no doubt was inspired by circular objects. Circles are still inventions, though.

You agree then, that all inventions are inspired by what already exists within creation.

My comment was in relation to the irony that Christians claim that we exist within a Creation, while they also deny that we exist within a Simulated Reality.

I think it takes faith to believe in either one.

I was wondering about that yesterday and decided that is not the case. Depending on how you yourself understand "faith" to being, determines whether you are correct about that.

The way I understand faith, it is the belief in something [it could be] rather than the knowing of something. [it is]
When someone has faith that they exist within a creation, the faith is specific to their idea of who/what the creator is, and is usually tied in with their belief that the creator they belief in, will 'save' them so they can experience [usually 'forever'] another creation which they will enjoy far more than this present one.

In relation to accepting one exists within a Reality Simulation, those elements are not required. So 'no faith necessary'.
[Not that "who/what the creator is", isn't an interesting question...just not one required in order to accept that we exist within a Simulated Reality aka Creation.]

In conclusion, all I see you doing is making a case for a wacky idea you appear to want to believe.

The irony being, that most atheists feel the same way about Christians claiming they exist within a "Creation". Can you appreciate said irony?

To believe in that idea you claim that math's alleged discovery, a dubious idea as I have demonstrated, is evidence for your "reality simulation."

I understand that you think you have demonstrated the idea we exist within a creation, is 'dubious' - that is the irony plus the humor...but you haven't really.
[Perhaps it might help us all understand your position if you could explain to us the difference between existing in a Created Reality and existing in a Simulated Reality?]

Your supposed evidence, mathematical discovery, is no more established than what you want to prove. It's analogous to a person wanting to prove Bigfoot exists by claiming fairies as evidence!

Or "god" or "satan" or "heaven" or "dragons" or any of the great number of Christian mythological critters that abound alongside the 'faith'! Hilarity right there.

On a more serious note, I am more interested in seeing and acknowledging the creators handiwork in the Simulated Reality we appear to be existing within.

Enjoy your ride...

[Tcg]

Why not just conclude that our brains are the product of evolution, and we used our brains to invent mathematics?

Because that is what atheists believe and I am not an atheist.

The acceptance of evolution is not excusive to atheists. Even more problematic is the misunderstanding that all atheists accept evolution. The only thing common to all atheists is their lack of belief in god/gods.

More to the point, because most atheists think that the concept of a "Creation" is hogwash... silly.

How did you reach such a conclusion about most atheists? What data can you provide to support this claim?


Tcg