Eternal Hell: Yes or No

[nobspeople]

When I joined this site, I (erroneously) assumed a Christian (by popular definition) believes in Eternal Hell damnation no matter the denomination or lack there of.
That doesn't seem to be the case with some of you (some believe it to be a temporary punishment, or not at all, etc). So I ask:

Do you believe in eternal hell (or eternal damnation if you like) or not?

If you do, who goes there?
Are there exceptions (mentally challenged people, newborn babies for examples)?

If you don't believe, why not?

What brings you to that conclusion?

[William]

Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.

All things considered, it is my understanding that when we die we don't actually cease to exist, we move on to the next phase of our experience and that will be manifested by the individual personality which formed through this current experience which we call "The Physical Universe".

Some individual personalities attract the creation of their own hell.

But is it eternal?

It depends upon the individual who created said hell for themselves.

I have read accounts where folk who have refined their ability to Astral Travel have encountered "soul retrievers" who's main task is to go into these areas [hells] created by the individuals suffering in them and try to convince those personalities to disassemble their self created horrors. I haven't read any account where there has been a successful retrieval, although I suppose that there must be some success or what would be the point in having such designation?

It may be that the 'soul' is retrieved so that it does not have to experience what the individual has created for him/her self to suffer in and thus the soul is freed from that particular personality.



Narcissistic loony-tunes...

BS (belief systems) challenged on matters of evil and hell

Personal Belief systems and their affect re the experience of afterlife.

More about Personal Belief systems and their affect re the experience of afterlife.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.

My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it. But even if I had not been taught anything on the matter from Him, you have provided no reason or evidence to accept the statement that you made. I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief. But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.


Just some things to perhaps consider. Or not, as you choose.


Peace again to you!

[William]

Peace to you,

Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.

My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it.

Who is your lord, that he does not teach of his fathers mansions?

But even if I had not been taught anything on the matter from Him, you have provided no reason or evidence to accept the statement that you made.

There is ample evidence of the sort I speak of. One only has to use the tools available ... and investigate. Have you done so?

I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief.

If belief is involved then it is better to believe what one experiences rather than what others say they have experienced. I haven't experienced any hell's but I have experienced leaving my body so I tend to give benefit of the doubt to those who have done the same and experienced the hells that they then come back and report of.

But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

Since the nature of the experiences people have whilst leaving their bodies is agreed by many who do this, to being able to create and maintain alternate realities which they experience as real, this is worth considering too.

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.

Sure - that has to be taken into account. But do you think one should ignore the reports because charlatan's exist? Where do you draw the line? At Religious mythology you happen to believe in? What makes those stories any less lies?

Just some things to perhaps consider. Or not, as you choose.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.

My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it.

Who is your lord, that he does not teach of his fathers mansions?

My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection. And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief.

If belief is involved then it is better to believe what one experiences rather than what others say they have experienced.

Sure... though if I understood you correctly, you have not experienced this 'hell' that others have claimed.

But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

Since the nature of the experiences people have whilst leaving their bodies is agreed by many who do this, to being able to create and maintain alternate realities which they experience as real, this is worth considering too.

If people are leaving their bodies (and returning to them), then they are yet alive, are they not? So how does it make sense to suggest that they are experiencing an afterlife?

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.

Sure - that has to be taken into account. But do you think one should ignore the reports because charlatan's exist? Where do you draw the line? A Religious mythology you happen to believe in? What makes those stories any less lies?

I do not ignore reports just because charlatans exist. But it is a consideration, along with the rest of the things I mentioned. I think I have explained my line: if it contradicts Christ (the Truth), then I know to reject it. If it does not contradict Him (or love), but I do not have evidence or confirmation of it, I will just reserve judgment until I have enough evidence to know one way or the other.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.

My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it.

Who is your lord, that he does not teach of his fathers mansions?

My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection. And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief.

If belief is involved then it is better to believe what one experiences rather than what others say they have experienced.

Sure... though if I understood you correctly, you have not experienced this 'hell' that others have claimed.

But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

Since the nature of the experiences people have whilst leaving their bodies is agreed by many who do this, to being able to create and maintain alternate realities which they experience as real, this is worth considering too.

If people are leaving their bodies (and returning to them), then they are yet alive, are they not? So how does it make sense to suggest that they are experiencing an afterlife?

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.

Sure - that has to be taken into account. But do you think one should ignore the reports because charlatan's exist? Where do you draw the line? A Religious mythology you happen to believe in? What makes those stories any less lies?

I do not ignore reports just because charlatans exist. But it is a consideration, along with the rest of the things I mentioned. I think I have explained my line: if it contradicts Christ (the Truth), then I know to reject it. If it does not contradict Him (or love), but I do not have evidence or confirmation of it, I will just reserve judgment until I have enough evidence to know one way or the other.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter. There is nothing like experiencing things for oneself.

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

Personally, I see nothing untoward about the idea that individual personalities create their own realities based on their attitudes and beliefs in the next phase of their experience, as it bodes well in relation to justice and there is no particular stain on the idea of The Father which would result, should that be the case.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?
As long as you are happy [and it sounds to me like you expect to be because you will be with The Lord] then it matters not that YOU created said place. The Lord simply prepared the groundwork...you did the rest....what does it matter?

[tam]

.
Peace to you William,

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Hells exist according to those who have experienced them and came back to tell the tale.

My Lord does not teach the 'system' that you describe, and so I cannot accept it.

Who is your lord, that he does not teach of his fathers mansions?

My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection. And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

I certainly mean no offense, and I respect your right to your belief.

If belief is involved then it is better to believe what one experiences rather than what others say they have experienced.

Sure... though if I understood you correctly, you have not experienced this 'hell' that others have claimed.

But there are many other things that can be considered instead of accepting that they had a real experience of a hell in an afterlife of their own making.

Since the nature of the experiences people have whilst leaving their bodies is agreed by many who do this, to being able to create and maintain alternate realities which they experience as real, this is worth considering too.

If people are leaving their bodies (and returning to them), then they are yet alive, are they not? So how does it make sense to suggest that they are experiencing an afterlife?

There have been claims of people going to hell (or to heaven) that have been recanted as lies (lies told to sell books; get publicity; lies that were pressured upon them by others, etc.) That is a fact. People also dream (I see no reason why a person could not dream during a near-death experience). So they might simply be relaying their experience from a dream of their own making (or nightmare, as it were). And even if it were a vision, that does not mean that they understood the meaning; they may have inserted their own belief system onto the meaning of their dream or vision.

Sure - that has to be taken into account. But do you think one should ignore the reports because charlatan's exist? Where do you draw the line? A Religious mythology you happen to believe in? What makes those stories any less lies?

I do not ignore reports just because charlatans exist. But it is a consideration, along with the rest of the things I mentioned. I think I have explained my line: if it contradicts Christ (the Truth), then I know to reject it. If it does not contradict Him (or love), but I do not have evidence or confirmation of it, I will just reserve judgment until I have enough evidence to know one way or the other.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I'm not sure you responded to (or considered) the actual content in my post. But...

Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.

Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.


I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me. And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

William even supplied the words from Christ about His Father's house that refute the claim being made (as shared above with the full quote regarding that House).

So I will continue in my Lord's word.

“If you remain in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.”

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

Personally, I see nothing untoward about the idea that individual personalities create their own realities based on their attitudes and beliefs in the next phase of their experience,

Just because you see nothing untoward about it does not make it true. Nor is it a reason for anyone - especially one in Christ - to entertain the idea (with no evidence for it, and Christ's teaching against it.)

as it bodes well in relation to justice

But it does not bode well in relation to justice, William.

Someone could have harmed many people in this world, done terrible wrongs, and still think that they deserve to be rewarded in the afterlife, and according to the system you are presenting, they would experience eternal happiness of their own making. Is that justice? There isn't even balance to that. And someone else could be so downtrodden, so emotionally and spiritually abused, that they think they deserve and will experience punishment in the afterlife. According to the system you are presenting, they would experience that punishment. Where is the justice in that? The balance? The love? The mercy?

and there is no particular stain on the idea of The Father which would result, should that be the case.

But there is no stain on the Father (of Christ) as it stands, according to truth Christ taught.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

As long as you are happy [and it sounds to me like you expect to be because you will be with The Lord] then it matters not that YOU created said place. The Lord simply prepared the groundwork...you did the rest....what does it matter?

Because truth matters. Not to everyone, but to some of us, and certainly to Christ - who is the Truth and promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth - and to His Father. And I would rather a painful truth than a 'comforting lie'.




Peace again to you William.


- a slave of Christ

[William]

.

Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.

Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.

It appears to me that you believe there are 'lying spirits' who can pretend to be your Lord.

I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me.
And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I dare say your Lord has never even appeared to you and spoken with you and you are sourcing your information from something other than The Lord, thinking that in this, you have a relationship with The Lord?

William even supplied the words from Christ about His Father's house that refute the claim being made (as shared above with the full quote regarding that House).

So I will continue in my Lord's word.

“If you remain in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.”

Ah so it becomes apparent that your relationship is not with The Lord but with something which you claim is The Lords 'word'...do you know why The Fathers House is big enough to fit mansions? Do you know what 'The Fathers House' is? Have you seen this house?

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

It is unknown as to what Christ did not mention as the authors do not say.

I write 'hells' to denote my understanding that individuals create these for themselves. The biblical authors surely do connect Christ with the notion of Hell - as none other than the principle source of the concept - so it was with some irony that I wrote what I did. If your Lord knows that Hell is real, then he would have mentioned so, in that context.
Since the authors claiming to write what The Lord spoke, clearly write of the notion that individuals can end up in such a place, we are left with no choice but to accept that your Lord knew this and mentioned Hell as a real place which can be experienced by individual human consciousnesses.

Personally, I see nothing untoward about the idea that individual personalities create their own realities based on their attitudes and beliefs in the next phase of their experience,

Just because you see nothing untoward about it does not make it true. Nor is it a reason for anyone - especially one in Christ - to entertain the idea (with no evidence for it, and Christ's teaching against it.)

"One in Christ" is something of a claim which cannot be substantiated and so has no particular merit as part of ones argument. It is a meaningless statement in that context.

as it bodes well in relation to justice

But it does not bode well in relation to justice, William.

Someone could have harmed many people in this world, done terrible wrongs, and still think that they deserve to be rewarded in the afterlife, and according to the system you are presenting, they would experience eternal happiness of their own making. Is that justice? There isn't even balance to that. And someone else could be so downtrodden, so emotionally and spiritually abused, that they think they deserve and will experience punishment in the afterlife. According to the system you are presenting, they would experience that punishment. Where is the justice in that? The balance? The love? The mercy?

The nature of the Spirit is such that nothing can hide from detection. The nature of the next phase [oft referred to as "afterlife"] has it that it is not just a matter of what the person believes but also the attitudes the individuals hide - even from themselves.
Therefore, the person may believe and claim that they are "good" or that they serve/are a slave to "The Lord" - but even if they believe it to be so, this in itself does not mean that they will create some nice paradise for themselves to experience forever in the next phase. We seem to agree in that, if they could, "How would that be Justice?"

The Spirit Knows and acts as a mirror in relation to the individual and reflects back at the individual exactly what it is that the individual personality has become [to that particular point re 'the next phase' of the individuals ongoing experience.]
That is the nature of The Fathers House and why there are many mansions able to fit into it - a bit like Dr. Who's "Tardis" which looks from the outside to be an old telephone box but once one steps into it, it shows itself to be far larger...
I digress slightly to give you a heads up re perspectives...

I see the Justice served with such a system...but it is all in The Fathers House, an I prefer playing in The Fathers Garden, outside of The Fathers House.

Just Saying....

and there is no particular stain on the idea of The Father which would result, should that be the case.

But there is no stain on the Father (of Christ) as it stands, according to truth Christ taught.

We agree. I mentioned it because the system I describe is Just. That The Father permits it, brings no stain upon The Fathers personality.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

On the contrary...it is not The Lords choice that the scribes did not record such teaching, except to hint at it now and again.

No matter!

The Father permits the illusion to occur for us all. If you want The Real, then I invite you to leave The Fathers House and come and enjoy The Fathers Garden.
There are places we can use our power together and create. [play] Even in The Garden. The Father Permits this ability in us all, regardless of where we each are.

As long as you are happy [and it sounds to me like you expect to be because you will be with The Lord] then it matters not that YOU created said place. The Lord simply prepared the groundwork...you did the rest....what does it matter?

Because truth matters. Not to everyone, but to some of us, and certainly to Christ - who is the Truth and promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth - and to His Father. And I would rather a painful truth than a 'comforting lie'.

Then may I respectfully suggest that you leave The Fathers House and come join me in The Fathers Garden...with the understanding that this would be a painful thing for you to do, leaving the comfort of the familiar for the unknown outside that awaits...I do so, not to cause a stumbling, but rather because it is there for those with eyes who want to see the unfamiliar...as an invitation which I think The Lord was the first one to offer us all....

Peace again to you William.

Just Saying Tam....Just Saying.

- a slave of Christ

Where's I am free in The Fathers Garden. And that is Justice...yes?

[tam]

Peace again to you William,

Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.

Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.

It appears to me that you believe there are 'lying spirits' who can pretend to be your Lord.

I said only that there are lying spirits. Perhaps you should refrain from adding to something people have said.

I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me.
And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I dare say your Lord has never even appeared to you and spoken with you and you are sourcing your information from something other than The Lord, thinking that in this, you have a relationship with The Lord?

You are wrong.

My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) does indeed speak, I (and all His sheep) hear His voice.

I have not made this a secret in the years that I have been on this forum, so I am surprised that you would suggest otherwise.

William even supplied the words from Christ about His Father's house that refute the claim being made (as shared above with the full quote regarding that House).

So I will continue in my Lord's word.

“If you remain in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.”

Ah so it becomes apparent that your relationship is not with The Lord but with something which you claim is The Lords 'word'...

Ah, William, that is quite the leap you just made. Just because I quote from something He said, does not mean that He does not also speak.

do you know why The Fathers House is big enough to fit mansions? Do you know what 'The Fathers House' is? Have you seen this house?

Do you know that you are misusing His words about the Father's house? Do you know that His actual words that you are 'using' refute the system that you are presenting?

There is deceit in that, William, or ignorance. Either of which should be a red flag both to you and to the reader.

And since you seem to have ignored this the first time around, I will repost it:

**
My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection. And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

**

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

It is unknown as to what Christ did not mention as the authors do not say.

So does that mean a person gets to make up whatever they want?

If your Lord knows that Hell is real, then he would have mentioned so, in that context.
Since the authors claiming to write what The Lord spoke, clearly write of the notion that individuals can end up in such a place, we are left with no choice but to accept that your Lord knew this and mentioned Hell as a real place which can be experienced by individual human consciousnesses.

Again, the meaning of hell has been explained in the previous posts, and throughout this thread. It has nothing to do with the idea that you are presenting.

Personally, I see nothing untoward about the idea that individual personalities create their own realities based on their attitudes and beliefs in the next phase of their experience,

Just because you see nothing untoward about it does not make it true. Nor is it a reason for anyone - especially one in Christ - to entertain the idea (with no evidence for it, and Christ's teaching against it.)

"One in Christ" is something of a claim which cannot be substantiated and so has no particular merit as part of ones argument. It is a meaningless statement in that context.

Perhaps you should apply these words to your own claims, William.

You seem to have sidestepped the point, but my words were pretty simple. A person who is in Christ (a person who belongs to Christ; who is part of His Body; His Church; His Bride) - has no reason to accept or even entertain the idea that you present, not the least because you have provided no evidence, but first and foremost because Christ does not teach it, and what He does teach refutes it.

His disciples remain in HIS word.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

On the contrary...it is not The Lords choice that the scribes did not record such teaching, except to hint at it now and again.

There is no evidence that yours is a teaching the scribes "chose not to record". The evidence shows just the opposite. Because the words that Christ is recorded as saying directly REFUTE this teaching that you are presenting. As does reason and even common sense - for lies do not come from truth, and Christ is the Truth.


Come on, William, think about this.

The Father permits the illusion to occur for us all. If you want The Real, then I invite you to leave The Fathers House and come and enjoy The Fathers Garden.

A - though the following is just repetition of things you seem to be refusing to look at: Christ does not promise to lead His sheep into illusion. He promises to leads His sheep into all truth.

B - I am not going to deny my Lord and His word and the place that He prepares for me. (Nor is there some kind of choice between His Father's house and the Garden - since my Lord is in His Father's house and He is also the Tree of Life in the Garden/Paradise). I am also not going to listen to you (or to anyone else) over Him. That would be disobeying God Himself, who led me to His Son when I asked to know His Truth, and who told me to listen to that Son. And if you are going to "use" (some) of the words Christ spoke, why not listen to all of His words on the matter? If you think He has enough authority to have spoken the truth about the Father's house, then would it not be wise to listen to all His words on the matter, and to follow Him? Instead of quote-mining and adding your own spin (or listening to someone else who has added their own spin)?

As long as you are happy [and it sounds to me like you expect to be because you will be with The Lord] then it matters not that YOU created said place. The Lord simply prepared the groundwork...you did the rest....what does it matter?

Because truth matters. Not to everyone, but to some of us, and certainly to Christ - who is the Truth and promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth - and to His Father. And I would rather a painful truth than a 'comforting lie'.

Then may I respectfully suggest that you leave The Fathers House and come join me in The Fathers Garden...

No.

The fact that you are asking such a thing - for me to deny my Lord and the truth that He teaches; to disobey my Father in heaven who drew me to His Son and told me to listen to Him; to reject the place that my Lord prepares for me... reveals that the source you are listening to cannot be from Christ or from His Father. I knew that already, but I state it out right for your sake and for the sake of the reader.


Unless you post something new that requires a response, I think this conversation is at an end.


Again, peace to you William (and to the reader),
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

[William]

Perhaps you can ask your lord to give you an experience of visiting a few of those aspects of afterlife [alternate realities] so that you have something in which to gauge by in order to ascertain the truth of the matter.

Nope. Not gonna do that. Forget it.


I will not ask Christ to show me some other claim or teaching... especially not when Christ has already taught me the truth on His Father's house, and on where we go when we die, and the resurrection (first and second). I will remain in my Lord's word, because I am HIS disciple. Doing as suggested above would be no different than me asking Christ - the TRUTH - to show me a lie, a deception. Not only can He not do that (He is not a deceiver - the deceiver would be the Adversary, the father of lies)... asking to be shown a deception could leave a person vulnerable to being deceived by a lying spirit.

It appears to me that you believe there are 'lying spirits' who can pretend to be your Lord.

I said only that there are lying spirits. Perhaps you should refrain from adding to something people have said.

Since I advised that you ask The Lord to show you and you replied that he wouldn't show you what you believe is deception, what are you saying then? That he would not show you?
Therefore, if a being came to you saying it was The Lord and could show you, you would have to believe that the being was a 'lying spirit' able to pretend that it was The Lord.

But you tell me. Do you believe lying spirits can pretend to be messengers of The Lord? Do you believe lying spirits can pretend to be The Lord?

I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me.
And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I dare say your Lord has never even appeared to you and spoken with you and you are sourcing your information from something other than The Lord, thinking that in this, you have a relationship with The Lord?

You are wrong.

My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) does indeed speak, I (and all His sheep) hear His voice.

I have not made this a secret in the years that I have been on this forum, so I am surprised that you would suggest otherwise.

So are you claiming that your Lord has directly appeared to you and spoken with you, other than through some indirect medium?

William even supplied the words from Christ about His Father's house that refute the claim being made (as shared above with the full quote regarding that House).

So I will continue in my Lord's word.

“If you remain in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.”

Ah so it becomes apparent that your relationship is not with The Lord but with something which you claim is The Lords 'word'...

Ah, William, that is quite the leap you just made. Just because I quote from something He said, does not mean that He does not also speak.

Well don't be all the mystery Tam. Give us your testimonies of the times your Lord has directly visited with you and spoken this truth you claim to have gotten from him.

do you know why The Fathers House is big enough to fit mansions? Do you know what 'The Fathers House' is? Have you seen this house?

Do you know that you are misusing His words about the Father's house? Do you know that His actual words that you are 'using' refute the system that you are presenting?

No I do not. That is why I asked you for clarity Tam. Now can you answer my questions?

There is deceit in that, William, or ignorance. Either of which should be a red flag both to you and to the reader.

And since you seem to have ignored this the first time around, I will repost it:

**

My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection.


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

On the one hand - your Lord [as per the story] teaches you what the authors want you to believe.

On the other hand - The Lord, teaches that you have to learn the truth for yourself.

And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).

Unfortunately for your argument, the authors didn't take great care in making sure people understood that Tam. No one expects garbage to have feelings and gnash teeth. Unfortunately for your argument, the authors made it clear that the character of Jesus speaks of things far too literally for there to be any confusion over whether he was being figurative.

As much as these stories [as written] give rise to relevant questions there seem to be folk who are happy to turn a blind eye and fabricate a concoction of interpretations to explain away those glaringly obvious observations regarding said mythologies.

It happens all the time among Christians as can be witnessed in their arguments against each other as to interpretation of 'what is written' in 'the word of god' and why is one not entitled to reasonably expect that if The Lord said it, then it should be easy enough to understand without interpretation.

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

It is unknown as to what Christ did not mention as the authors do not say.

So does that mean a person gets to make up whatever they want?

Re-read my posts. I am not 'making this up' - I am formulating a theory on 'what happens after we die' based upon a variety of information - some of which is from personal experience and other of which is reports of other peoples experiences.
Your only retort seems to be that everything experienced in these manner, are from 'lying spirits' but what evidence can you provide along with your retort? None so far...I suspect none will be forthcoming...prove my suspicions unfounded is all I ask.

If your Lord knows that Hell is real, then he would have mentioned so, in that context.
Since the authors claiming to write what The Lord spoke, clearly write of the notion that individuals can end up in such a place, we are left with no choice but to accept that your Lord knew this and mentioned Hell as a real place which can be experienced by individual human consciousnesses.

Again, the meaning of hell has been explained in the previous posts, and throughout this thread. It has nothing to do with the idea that you are presenting.

Not at all. Certainly not all calling themselves Christians, agree with your interpretation on the matter. Show me why those ones are lying and you are telling the truth.
Why should I even believe your interpretations over my own alternate experiences?

Personally, I see nothing untoward about the idea that individual personalities create their own realities based on their attitudes and beliefs in the next phase of their experience,

Just because you see nothing untoward about it does not make it true. Nor is it a reason for anyone - especially one in Christ - to entertain the idea (with no evidence for it, and Christ's teaching against it.)

"One in Christ" is something of a claim which cannot be substantiated and so has no particular merit as part of ones argument. It is a meaningless statement in that context.

Perhaps you should apply these words to your own claims, William.

I have not claimed to be 'one in Christ' Tam, so no. I apply them to you who are making the claim...

You seem to have sidestepped the point, but my words were pretty simple. A person who is in Christ (a person who belongs to Christ; who is part of His Body; His Church; His Bride) - has no reason to accept or even entertain the idea that you present, not the least because you have provided no evidence, but first and foremost because Christ does not teach it, and what He does teach refutes it.

So you claim Tam - but since the church has a history of lies and deception it is hardly a good thing to be a slave to it, or to the stories it tells you to believe in as truth.
Why do you accept such stories as truth when you have been provided no evidence that the stories are indeed, truth? Why the double standard here Tam?

His disciples remain in HIS word.

Bibles didn't exist until the church created them Tam. So the Lords Disciples were not subject to what the bible claims their Lord said. So the claim that the Bible is 'the word of The Lord' is not necessarily and quite unlikely to be the case.
But if you have the evidence to support the claim that the bible IS the Lords Word, I am happy to see it.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

On the contrary...it is not The Lords choice that the scribes did not record such teaching, except to hint at it now and again.

There is no evidence that yours is a teaching the scribes "chose not to record". The evidence shows just the opposite. Because the words that Christ is recorded as saying directly REFUTE this teaching that you are presenting. As does reason and even common sense - for lies do not come from truth, and Christ is the Truth.

You claim there is evidence yet you continue not to show us that evidence Tam. What of The Lords 'teaching' is it that supposedly REFUTES what I am saying is the likely thing to expect in the next phase? [afterlife]. Christianity teaches a variety of beliefs about 'what happens in the next phase'. That they do not all agree together is hardly good enough reason to condemn my theories as from a 'lying spirit'.

Come on, William, think about this.

I have, do and will continue to Tam. There seems little point in simply accepting your word among Christians as being the truth of the matter in relation to how you choose to interpret the written mythology.

The Father permits the illusion to occur for us all. If you want The Real, then I invite you to leave The Fathers House and come and enjoy The Fathers Garden.

A - though the following is just repetition of things you seem to be refusing to look at: Christ does not promise to lead His sheep into illusion. He promises to leads His sheep into all truth.

B - I am not going to deny my Lord and His word and the place that He prepares for me. (Nor is there some kind of choice between His Father's house and the Garden - since my Lord is in His Father's house and He is also the Tree of Life in the Garden/Paradise). I am also not going to listen to you (or to anyone else) over Him. That would be disobeying God Himself, who led me to His Son when I asked to know His Truth, and who told me to listen to that Son. And if you are going to "use" (some) of the words Christ spoke, why not listen to all of His words on the matter? If you think He has enough authority to have spoken the truth about the Father's house, then would it not be wise to listen to all His words on the matter, and to follow Him? Instead of quote-mining and adding your own spin (or listening to someone else who has added their own spin)?

What you refer to as 'listening to god himself' is not actually [in truth] what is going on though Tammy. Rather, you are listening to the Church mythology to which you have chosen to believe in as "The Word of God" at the expense of other ways of seeing things [through personal experience] by naming those other things, as 'lies'.

That is hardly a great argument. "I believe in the bible, therefore anything I do not interpret/have interpreted for me as being in the bible, is lies!" Nope - not a great argument Tam...

As long as you are happy [and it sounds to me like you expect to be because you will be with The Lord] then it matters not that YOU created said place. The Lord simply prepared the groundwork...you did the rest....what does it matter?

Because truth matters. Not to everyone, but to some of us, and certainly to Christ - who is the Truth and promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth - and to His Father. And I would rather a painful truth than a 'comforting lie'.

Then may I respectfully suggest that you leave The Fathers House and come join me in The Fathers Garden...

No.

The fact that you are asking such a thing - for me to deny my Lord and the truth that He teaches; to disobey my Father in heaven who drew me to His Son and told me to listen to Him; to reject the place that my Lord prepares for me... reveals that the source you are listening to cannot be from Christ or from His Father. I knew that already, but I state it out right for your sake and for the sake of the reader.


Unless you post something new that requires a response, I think this conversation is at an end.

Sure fob me off as you will. I remain convinced that it is just and right that you remain in your room prepared for you by your Lord, and that you can stay there until you learn how to play nicely.

A room in the Fathers House is not in and of itself - The Fathers Kingdom...

Peace again to you William,

So - you reject my argument, imply that I am being mislead by a lying spirit, and then offer me 'peace' Tam -while fobbing me off. Such contradiction as this I have come to expect from those claiming to be 'The Lords"....they have yet to give good reason as to why I should believe their claims as the truth of the matter.

[tam]

Peace to you,

William, I did not 'fob you off' (I had to look that up to see what it meant).

In my first response to your claim, I explained the reason I could not accept your claim: a lack of evidence provided... and the fact that goes against what Christ teaches (<-this is most important to me, as it should be to anyone who professes to be Christian). I also listed other explanations for the phenomenon these other people claim to be experiencing.

viewtopic.php?p=1030073#p1030073


You then asked me questions which I answered. You used a partial quote from Christ (from His words on "In my Father's house there are many rooms", or mansions as you prefer) to help support your claim. But you ignored the rest of what He said in that quote. I explained this in my second post viewtopic.php?p=1030075#p1030075 . You chose not to respond to those things directly, but I have nothing more to say on that matter than what has already been said.

So I have answered the questions that you asked, William, but I see no reason to continue to repeat the same things over and over again.

I am going to clarify some things though:

I will only ask my Lord for the truth... truth that comes from Him and His Father. My Lord (Christ Jaheshua) has never lied to me.
And He has already taught me how to test the inspired expression (or any claim that another person makes). To test the inspired expression against Him (and His word), and to test the inspired expression against love.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I dare say your Lord has never even appeared to you and spoken with you and you are sourcing your information from something other than The Lord, thinking that in this, you have a relationship with The Lord?

I corrected this already. But I would like to ask a follow-up question(s), if I may:

Did you find something to be wrong with my words above? If so, what? That I would ask for the truth? That I would listen to what Christ teaches and remain in Him? And even if I had meant only what is written (though I did not mean this) - how could you possibly find fault with that when you are quote-mining a phrase from Him in what is written to try and support your claim?

My Lord is Jaheshua, the Chosen One and Holy (Spirit) of JAH.

He does not teach that we 'make our own afterlife'. He does teach that there are many rooms in His Father's house, but also that HE goes there to prepare a place for us (whom He chooses), so that He can return and bring us to Him.

In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. John 14:2, 3

So a) He is preparing out place; and b) He brings us to where HE is, to be with HIM.

He certainly does not teach that He goes to prepare a room (or mansion) of 'hell' for us. Nor does He teach that there is a 'hell' in His Father's house at all. Nor does He teach that He prepares rooms of our own 'creation'. He does teach us what 'hell' is, as pertains to mankind: the world of the dead (sheol/hades), where the dead (not in Christ) are asleep and awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The dead in Christ go 'under the altar' awaiting the first resurrection.


So my Lord certainly does teach that His Father's house has many rooms. But He does not teach the things you have said about His Father's house or the many rooms within.

On the one hand - your Lord [as per the story] teaches you what the authors want you to believe.

You are the one who referenced these words to begin with, are you not?

I simply provided the full quote so that you could see both the context and the meaning (which do not support the claim you made).

On the other hand - The Lord, teaches that you have to learn the truth for yourself.

By listening to and knowing Him (He is Himself the Truth, and speaks the truth, and promises to lead His sheep into all truth).

That is what I am doing.

And the other word that pertains to mankind that has been translated as 'hell' is actually gehenna (the garbage dump outside Israel, and so, symbolic; a place where both body and soul can be destroyed - not tormented).

Unfortunately for your argument, the authors didn't take great care in making sure people understood that Tam.

The authors used the word gehenna. The authors did not use the word hell. Later scribes translated the word gehenna into the word hell, thereby confusing the issue and the difference between gehenna and hades(greek)/sheol(hebrew). Perhaps some further research into the subject would be of assistance?


viewtopic.php?p=1028604#p1028604
viewtopic.php?p=970644#p970644

No one expects garbage to have feelings and gnash teeth.

Who said anything about weeping (feelings) and gnashing teeth in respect to gehenna? Where are you getting that from?

Unfortunately for your argument, the authors made it clear that the character of Jesus speaks of things far too literally for there to be any confusion over whether he was being figurative.

Can you be more specific so that I can better understand your objection?

As much as these stories [as written] give rise to relevant questions there seem to be folk who are happy to turn a blind eye and fabricate a concoction of interpretations to explain away those glaringly obvious observations regarding said mythologies.

Are you not doing that VERY thing with regard to the words at John 14:2,3?

As to the existence of hells, If your Lord knows that these are real, then he would have mentioned them in that context.

I can't make sense of this statement.

Christ doesn't mention 'hells' at all.

It is unknown as to what Christ did not mention as the authors do not say.

So does that mean a person gets to make up whatever they want?

Re-read my posts. I am not 'making this up'

My question was with regard to what Christ is supposed to have said.

Your only retort seems to be that everything experienced in these manner, are from 'lying spirits'

This is not true. Please re-read my original response.

If your Lord knows that Hell is real, then he would have mentioned so, in that context.
Since the authors claiming to write what The Lord spoke, clearly write of the notion that individuals can end up in such a place, we are left with no choice but to accept that your Lord knew this and mentioned Hell as a real place which can be experienced by individual human consciousnesses.

I never said hell was not a real place. Hell (translated from the greek hades, or the hebrew sheol) simply means the world of the dead. Please see the links provided above, which I think includes a reference to my first or second post on this thread.

Again, the meaning of hell has been explained in the previous posts, and throughout this thread. It has nothing to do with the idea that you are presenting.

Not at all.

I apologize, because I confused this thread with one of other two long running threads on hell. So there has been limited explanation on this thread. I believe at least one of the links I provided above point to a long running thread on the subject. That being said, there is nothing about hell - as written in the bible or from Christ - that supports the idea that you are presenting of 'hells'.

Certainly not all calling themselves Christians, agree with your interpretation on the matter. Show me why those ones are lying and you are telling the truth.
Why should I even believe your interpretations over my own alternate experiences?

By your own admission, you have not experienced these 'hells'. But what you believe is your business. I meant it when I said I did not wish to offend you, and for that reason, I regret responding to your post in the first place. But I am not the one telling you what to believe. What I told you is what I cannot accept from your claim - and why I cannot accept it.

You seem to have sidestepped the point, but my words were pretty simple. A person who is in Christ (a person who belongs to Christ; who is part of His Body; His Church; His Bride) - has no reason to accept or even entertain the idea that you present, not the least because you have provided no evidence, but first and foremost because Christ does not teach it, and what He does teach refutes it.

So you claim Tam - but since the church has a history of lies and deception it is hardly a good thing to be a slave to it, or to the stories it tells you to believe in as truth.
Why do you accept such stories as truth when you have been provided no evidence that the stories are indeed, truth? Why the double standard here Tam?

I do not know what you mean when you say 'the church', but I assume you mean the religion that calls itself "Christianity" (with its many sects and denominations)? I am not a slave to that, or even a part of that. I do not know what stories you are referring to that I am supposed to be accepting without evidence, so I cannot respond to your 'double standard' question.

His disciples remain in HIS word.

Bibles didn't exist until the church created them Tam.

Did I claim that the Bible was the word of Christ? I am speaking of His words, His teachings, His commands.

His disciples remain in His word. His disciples keep His commands. His disciples listen to and follow Him.

What is the issue here?

So the Lords Disciples were not subject to what the bible claims their Lord said. So the claim that the Bible is 'the word of The Lord' is not necessarily and quite unlikely to be the case.
But if you have the evidence to support the claim that the bible IS the Lords Word, I am happy to see it.

I did not make that claim to begin with.

As a clear example - your own beliefs will have you experiencing your own creation based upon your own attitudes and personality in general and what would it matter [to you or anyone] if you were under the impression that The Lord had created said place you will next experience?

A - see the flaws in the system you are presenting, above.

B - this would be a deception. This would not be truth. My Lord IS and SPEAKS the truth. He promises to lead His sheep into ALL truth. He does not deceive. He does not lie. And nothing in what you are describing is from, or even about, truth. The 'afterlife' of the system you are presenting is a deception.

My Lord - who is the TRUTH - can have nothing to do with something like that. He does not teach it.

On the contrary...it is not The Lords choice that the scribes did not record such teaching, except to hint at it now and again.

There is no evidence that yours is a teaching the scribes "chose not to record". The evidence shows just the opposite. Because the words that Christ is recorded as saying directly REFUTE this teaching that you are presenting. As does reason and even common sense - for lies do not come from truth, and Christ is the Truth.

You claim there is evidence yet you continue not to show us that evidence Tam. What of The Lords 'teaching' is it that supposedly REFUTES what I am saying is the likely thing to expect in the next phase? [afterlife].

I have been presenting it.

A - see previous explanation about John 14 (repeated a few times now).

B - the dead in Christ are under the altar awaiting the first resurrection (Rev 6:9-11). The dead not in Christ are in Hades (the meaning of which is explained in the above links) awaiting the resurrection of the dead (Rev 20:11-13, though this is referred to by the prophet Daniel as well). This has also been explained previously.

C - Christ promises to lead His sheep into all truth, and promises to return and bring His disciples to be with Him in the place He has prepared for them in His Father's house. An illusion is by definition NOT the truth. This has also been explained more fully, previously.

The Father permits the illusion to occur for us all. If you want The Real, then I invite you to leave The Fathers House and come and enjoy The Fathers Garden.

A - though the following is just repetition of things you seem to be refusing to look at: Christ does not promise to lead His sheep into illusion. He promises to leads His sheep into all truth.

B - I am not going to deny my Lord and His word and the place that He prepares for me. (Nor is there some kind of choice between His Father's house and the Garden - since my Lord is in His Father's house and He is also the Tree of Life in the Garden/Paradise). I am also not going to listen to you (or to anyone else) over Him. That would be disobeying God Himself, who led me to His Son when I asked to know His Truth, and who told me to listen to that Son. And if you are going to "use" (some) of the words Christ spoke, why not listen to all of His words on the matter? If you think He has enough authority to have spoken the truth about the Father's house, then would it not be wise to listen to all His words on the matter, and to follow Him? Instead of quote-mining and adding your own spin (or listening to someone else who has added their own spin)?

What you refer to as 'listening to god himself' is not actually [in truth] what is going on though Tammy.

God did lead me to His Son when I asked (and sought) to know His truth. But (for the most part) God now speaks to us through His Son (the Word of God).

The words, "This is my Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him", are indeed found in what is written.

Rather, you are listening to the Church mythology to which you have chosen to believe in as "The Word of God" at the expense of other ways of seeing things [through personal experience] by naming those other things, as 'lies'.

None of this is true.

And my personal experience is of my Lord (Christ Jaheshua) being alive, speaking (as He said He would do), teaching and leading His sheep into all truth (as He said He would so), and that His sheep hear/listen to His voice (as He said they would). So the words that He spoke (according to what is written) on these matters have been shown (to me) to be true. His promise at John 14:23 has also proven to be true (to me). I have no reason at all to doubt Him, and I will not.

If you have any further questions about what I mean when I refer to my Lord speaking and His sheep hearing His voice, perhaps the greater explanation in the following link will help:

viewtopic.php?p=738377#p738377

That is hardly a great argument. "I believe in the bible, therefore anything I do not interpret/have interpreted for me as being in the bible, is lies!" Nope - not a great argument Tam...

Nor is it my argument.



Now this is an insanely long post, much longer than I intended when I said I wanted to clarify a few things, lol. But there you go.



Peace still to you William.