Who Sinned First?

[William]

Adam or Eve?

[John Bauer]

Biblically humans are inferior life forms to spirits. Expecting a human to stop a spirit from going somewhere is like expecting an ant to stop a train.

I never said Adam was supposed to stop spirits from going somewhere. The issue is a particular deceiving serpent.

There are some [who take] the approach that a snake literally spoke to Eve but even in that case the bible explains God created all the creatures on earth. If snakes were present in the garden it was by His divine will and purpose. It is illogical to assume Adam could have stopped snakes being present in the garden if an omnipotent God willed for them to be there.

I never said Adam was supposed to rid the garden of all snakes. I said he should have rid the garden of that particular deceiving serpent who was spewing guile right in front of him and Eve.

Glaring in its absence is the divine mandate to free/protect the garden of all snakes. Adam was instructed to name the animals and the indication was that he did so, but at no point do we hear of him being told to keep snakes away.

I never said Adam was given a mandate to rid the garden of all snakes.

Whether we view "the Serpent" as a spirit creature or as a literal speaking snake, it is illogical to assume Adam should be held responsible for its presence in the garden.

So you claim. But that claim needs a supporting argument. As you can see, the above wasn't it.

[SeekerofTruth]

[Replying to theophile in post #2]

If you want the legal answer; Eve sinned first. If you want the Biblical answer; Adam and Eve were husband and wife. They were no longer two, they were one. As such, any action effected them mutually. This is why it later states women will be saved by their husbands. Esoterically, the story is allegorical. The “fruit” of knowing right from wrong (tree of knowledge of good and evil), is guilt. It is guilt that spiritually separates us from the Father. That is why the guilt needs to be absolved through forgiveness to restore connection to an Almighty God....to serve Him.

[JehovahsWitness]

Okay I must have misunderstood your statement...

d.) prevented the serpent from being in the garden at all.

I took the above to mean he should, preemptive of the temptation, have identified and expulsed the serpent. I see now that is not what you meant.

...he should have rid the garden of that particular deceiving serpent who was spewing guile right in front of him and Eve.

So (correct me if I am.mistaken), based on the presumption that Adam was present besides Eve when they first encountered the "speaking snake", you hold Adam responsible for not putting an end to the conversation and killing that particular snake.

Is that your point?

[heistrue]

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Genesis 3:6
The woman saw how beautiful the tree was and how good its fruit would be to eat, and she thought how wonderful it would be to become wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it.


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Well, Adam sinned, God told Adam NOT to eat that certain fruit from that certain Tree. However, what is your point ? Here we are, all mankind also paying the price.. It proved that mankind of flesh and blood are NOT perfect. Well when you look back at it all even the Angels revolted and went with Lucifer so they are not perfect creatures either, right ? Adam being the first man sinned first.
Bless you. oops remember this, that Adam and his wife were both created in genesis chapter 1.....but in Gen 2: 15 ADONAI, God, took the person and put him in the garden of 'Eden to cultivate and care for it.
16 ADONAI, God, gave the person this order: "You may freely eat from every tree in the garden
17 except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die."
so may we say that being obedient to God is GOOD but being disobedient to GOD is evil and knowing of this brings death ?

[heistrue]

Biblically humans are inferior life forms to spirits. Expecting a human to stop a spirit from going somewhere is like expecting an ant to stop a train.

I never said Adam was supposed to stop spirits from going somewhere. The issue is a particular deceiving serpent.

There are some [who take] the approach that a snake literally spoke to Eve but even in that case the bible explains God created all the creatures on earth. If snakes were present in the garden it was by His divine will and purpose. It is illogical to assume Adam could have stopped snakes being present in the garden if an omnipotent God willed for them to be there.

I never said Adam was supposed to rid the garden of all snakes. I said he should have rid the garden of that particular deceiving serpent who was spewing guile right in front of him and Eve.

Glaring in its absence is the divine mandate to free/protect the garden of all snakes. Adam was instructed to name the animals and the indication was that he did so, but at no point do we hear of him being told to keep snakes away.

I never said Adam was given a mandate to rid the garden of all snakes.

Whether we view "the Serpent" as a spirit creature or as a literal speaking snake, it is illogical to assume Adam should be held responsible for its presence in the garden.

So you claim. But that claim needs a supporting argument. As you can see, the above wasn't it.

.... it could all be allegory ... a talking snake-lizard ( it had legs ) the only point being made is mankind's tendency for disobedience and error... Tell me, who has never sinned ? Adam had everything anyone could have ever wanted but he tossed it all away thinking to get even more and BELIEVING someone other than GOD. Now you know why we have hundreds of " cults " pretending to be true Christian Churches.
No matter, God, even then, had all under His perfect control..

,,, Remember what God told Isaiah ? Isa 10: 8 Remember this, and stand firm. Keep it in mind, you rebels.
9 "Remember things that happened at the beginning, long ago - that I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
10 At the beginning I announce the end, proclaim in advance things not yet done; and I say that my plan will hold, I will do everything I please to do.
11 I call a bird of prey from the east, the man I intended, from a distant country. I have spoken and will bring it about; I have made a plan, and I will fulfill it.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn people, so far from righteousness:

[heistrue]

.


Genesis 3:6
The woman saw how beautiful the tree was and how good its fruit would be to eat, and she thought how wonderful it would be to become wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it.


.

why is this important to you ? The huge problem IS,,, how do we ALL get salvation/saved ? This is the major issue for all mankind ie; SALVATION...Remember the story about Noah ???? Who do you claim sinned first ?

[John Bauer]

Okay, I must have misunderstood your statement ... [which I took to mean that] he should, preemptive of the temptation, have identified and expulsed the serpent. I see now that is not what you meant.

I appreciate the acknowledgment and shifting of gears. Thank-you.

So (correct me if I am mistaken), based on the presumption that Adam was present besides Eve when they first encountered the "speaking snake", you hold Adam responsible for not putting an end to the conversation and killing that particular snake. Is that your point?

Yeah, basically. But my point stands whether Adam was literally beside her or elsewhere in the garden. His responsibility should be obvious if he was standing next to her at the time, but what about if he was "with her" in the garden but not literally beside her? In that case, I assume Eve approached him with the fruit and recounted the conversation with the serpent, then offered Adam a bite. What he then should have done, consistent with his mandate, is immediately seek out the serpent (perhaps with Eve showing him where it was) and expel him from the garden. The problem, regardless of which scenario is accepted, is the fact that he did not confront and expel the serpent. This is the sense in which Adam failed his mandate to keep careful watch over the garden.

Addendum: "You hold Adam responsible for not ... killing that particular snake." Killing the serpent was neither expected nor called for, but rather expelling the serpent—as God finally did, while also expelling Adam and Eve.

[Miles]

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Genesis 3:6
The woman saw how beautiful the tree was and how good its fruit would be to eat, and she thought how wonderful it would be to become wise. So she took some of the fruit and ate it. Then she gave some to her husband, and he also ate it.

Well, Adam sinned, God told Adam NOT to eat that certain fruit from that certain Tree. However, what is your point ?

That according to Genesis Eve ate the fruit before Adam ate it, therefore she sinned first.

why is this important to you ? The huge problem IS,,, how do we ALL get salvation/saved ? This is the major issue for all mankind ie; SALVATION...Remember the story about Noah ???? Who do you claim sinned first ?

That may be a huge problem, but it isn't the question up for debate, which, if you read the thread title, is: Who Sinned First?.


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[JehovahsWitness]

What he then should have done, consistent with his mandate, is immediately seek out the serpent (perhaps with Eve showing him where it was) and expel him from the garden.

1) His mandate was to take care of the animals not decide which would stay or go. If a father told you to take are of his twins , would you have the right to sell one if they misbehaved ?

2) It wasn't Adams garden, it was God's garden (over which he was give guadianship). Adam wouldnt have had the authority to expell anything from a garden that didn 't being to him. God bought the animals in and only God hbad the authority to expell them.

3) If the "snake" could outsmart a hitherto perfect human, it was probably intelligent enough to get out of the immediate vicinity. And depending on how much time passed, might arguably have been difficult to find.

[heistrue]

What he then should have done, consistent with his mandate, is immediately seek out the serpent (perhaps with Eve showing him where it was) and expel him from the garden.

1) His mandate was to take care of the animals not decide which would stay or go. If a father told you to take are of his twins , would you sell one if they misbehaved ?

2) It wasn't Adams garden, it was God's garden (over which he was give guadianship). Adam wouldnt have had the authority to expell anything from a garden that didn 't being to him. God bought the animals in and only God hbad the authority to expell them.

3) If the "snake" could outsmart a hitherto perfect human, it was probably intelligent enough to get out of the immediate vicinity. And depending on how much time passed, might arguably have been difficult to find.

Yes eve did eat first how ever the Q was about who sinned first ? Did Adam tell Eve how God commanded him not to eat form the tree It is hard NOT to be the perfect human when you are the ONLY human, at the time..