Who Sinned First?

[William]

Adam or Eve?

[bluegreenearth]

The thread subject isn't about [or asking] who in the story sinned first. It is about which human sinned first.

Technically, the OP asked "Who sinned first?" where "Adam or Eve" could be interpreted as a false dichotomy. However, if your intention was to ignore the fact that the serpent was the first entity to sin and keep the focus on Adam and Eve for some reason, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[PinSeeker]

According to the myth, it was neither Eve nor Adam but the serpent that sinned first. Is there a logically justifiable reason to believe the serpent's intentions and actions in the story were not sinful?

<chuckles> "Myth"...

Satan was not a part of God's creation act regarding the world, BGE, and was not part of mankind, as Adam and Eve were. Adam, and after Adam, Eve, were created on the sixth day, and on the seventh, God rested, establishing the Sabbath. Satan is never mentioned on any of the days of Creation. I understood the original question propagated in the first post as intensely related to the Biblical doctrine of Original Sin and the plunging of this world into its present fallen state. And the one responsible for it is not Satan -- and not Eve -- but Adam.

The Bible doesn’t give us any kind of detailed account of Satan’s origin but it does indicate, in Isaiah 14, that Satan originally was one of God’s angels, created by Him to carry out His will. But apparently Satan became filled with jealousy and pride, and he decided that he would lead a rebellion against God so he could take God’s place as the ruler of all creation:

• “You said in your heart… ‘I will make myself like the Most High'” (Isaiah 14:13-14).

The greatest truth we can know about Satan, however, is this that he is a defeated foe! By His death and resurrection, Christ Jesus, as evidenced by His final exclamatory statement on the cross, "It is finished!", conquered the forces of sin and death and hell and Satan, and one great day, this will be made final and complete, and none of those things will be here with us anymore.

Grace and peace to all.

[William]

Double post

[William]

The thread subject isn't about [or asking] who in the story sinned first. It is about which human sinned first.

Technically, the OP asked "Who sinned first?" where "Adam or Eve" could be interpreted as a false dichotomy. However, if your intention was to ignore the fact that the serpent was the first entity to sin and keep the focus on Adam and Eve for some reason, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

If you follow my critique it becomes obvious that the thread was not designed to be a false dichotomy. It also becomes obvious that I am focused on the tradition of Middle Eastern Mythological belief that it was Eve was the first to sin.
Hopefully your misunderstanding has been sorted.

[William]

According to the myth, it was neither Eve nor Adam but the serpent that sinned first. Is there a logically justifiable reason to believe the serpent's intentions and actions in the story were not sinful?

<chuckles> "Myth"...

Satan was not a part of God's creation...

The Serpent Race is not the focus of this thread and I hope that your post does not assist in the thread going off topic in that regard.

[PinSeeker]

...I am focused on the tradition of belief that Eve was the first to sin.

Yeah, if that could be called a "tradition"... and I really kind of agree that it could be... it was a certainly not a consensus or anywhere close to it. But there is a long, long, LONG history among men of intentional -- and unintentional -- Scriptural manipulation and distortion. Fortunately they have all come to nothing, and this will always be the case, and all doubt and all attempts at such will be removed once and for all at the day of Christ. As Peter, quoting Isaiah, says:

• “All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.” (1 Peter 1:24-25)

Grace and peace to all.

[PinSeeker]

The Serpent Race is not the focus of this thread and I hope that your post does not assist in the thread going off topic in that regard.

LOL! "The Serpent Race." That's funny. Nope, just trying to meet you where you are at, albeit briefly. And, I was redirecting BGE to the topic, actually.

Grace and peace to you.

[William]

Lets run with that then...why did Eve think that touching the fruit was against the gods command?

Yeah, let's don't. We don't know from the text what Eve thought or did not... thought. Except to say that she was deceived. I'm sure something was going on in her thoughts (as she almost certainly had a brain... ), but it's not germane to the Scriptural narrative, and it's not germane to this discussion.

Are you saying that the mythology does not accept that "being wise in one's own eyes" is the same as being deceived?

I'm saying that any reasonable human being with any ability to comprehend things and communicate at least somewhat effectively would quickly say that being wise in ones own eyes does not in and of itself imply deception of any kind but simply thinking he or she knows better than what he or she has heard or been told is true. Self-deception is a possibility, but still only secondary. Whether almost instantaneous or gradual/eventual, one can convince himself or herself that something antithetical to a given truth is true, thereby fooling himself or herself. Frankly, I'm incredulous that this part of the discussion is even necessary, although, also frankly, I think we both know that it is not necessary and that you're just throwing stuff up against the wall and hoping it sticks.

We agree then that the mythology is saying that Adam sinned first but also that he was deceived by his self?

We agree, William -- as has been very evident by my previous posts and you're trying to put words in my mouth -- that the Biblical narrative (it matters not whether you think it's a myth or not, and I might remind you that the purpose statement of TD&D states that Scripture is assumed here to be authoritative, which means, according to any dictionary, able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable) is very clear that Adam's sin was first and was effectual regarding the ensuing state of all mankind, the human condition. This is not to say that Eve did not sin -- she did -- but that her sin was effected by her having been deceived, which is not the case with Adam.

It is true and it does matter. It may matter so much that it could be the reason why women have been/are so mistreated my men who's minds are under the influence of the idea that Eve sinned first.

It's your opinion. I agree that it's true and it does matter that women have been mistreated over the centuries by men (and other women, too, although maybe in different ways) Christian and otherwise who have manipulated the truth of, and what can be clearly understood from, Scripture (people are not really smarter than they ever have been) to suit their own selfish ends. Others, also Christian and otherwise, have done so in total ignorance of Scripture, but they are not excused either because they innately knew it to be wrong (God made us that way, this is part of what it means to be created in His image). In either case, it has been wise-ness in their own eyes, and that comes from and is the result of pride and self-centeredness -- which was really what Adam's sin was -- as opposed to humility and selflessness, which is what man is exhorted to over and over again throughout the Bible... and by his/her conscience, whether theye "identify" as Christians or not or really know anything about Scripture or not.

How else can we explain such behavior - an unwillingness to defend his wife Eve in the face of temptation? Something was behind his inaction...and we can see that it had to do with Adams self deception that he could be like god if he had this wonderful knowledge...but he was a coward and used Eve to make sure it was then safe for him to eat of.

Yeah I agree with... a little bit... of this... the cowardice part, at least. But even that is a product of pride and/or self-centeredness. Again, Adam was not deceived. He absolutely knew what he was supposed to do -- for God, for Eve, and secondarily for himself. But he failed. Miserably. And, like I said -- therefore, the need for a Savior, for God Himself to rectify things, and the great thing is that He will, despite what seems to be going on around us. Redemption has been accomplished; Christ Jesus did that on the cross. We are waiting for it to be fully applied, but know it eventually will be. God promised that from the get-go -- for the first time in Genesis 3:15, but certainly not the last -- and all God's promises find their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ:

• "For all the promises of God find their Yes in Him. That is why it is through Him that we utter our Amen to God for His glory." (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Grace and peace to you.

I think in general terms we agree the story presents Adam as the first to sin and that his sin was allowing his wife to be tempted by the Serpent.
It is not the intention of the thread to debate on whether being deceived is sinful or not. We can agree that Eve was deceived and I can agree that Eve's being deceived was the fault of Adams inactivity in being unwilling to step up to the plate and defend his wife from the Serpents deceptive temptations . I am not presenting my other arguments to those who agree that Adam was the first to sin, but to those who appear to resist that idea and believe it was Eve who was.

[PinSeeker]

I think in general terms we agree the story presents Adam as the first to sin and that his sin was allowing his wife to be tempted by the Serpent.

Ah... Okay. I mean, not to pick anything apart, really, but I don't really think we can say "allowing his wife to be tempted." I mean, he didn't really have anything to do with it. I think we agree on this, that maybe the better way to say that is that one of the ways Adam sinned was that he failed to correct Eve and stop Eve from succumbing to it. But still, okay.

We can agree that Eve was deceived...

Good...

...and I can agree that Eve's being deceived was the fault of Adam's inactivity in being unwilling to step up to the plate and defend his wife from the Serpents deceptive temptations.

Well, again, see above. I don't think anybody can blame Adam for Eve's being deceived, really. She was deceived by Satan, and Adam could have rectified that but did not. Again, I'm being a little picky, and I apologize for that, but it is what it is. I think you agree.

I am not presenting my other arguments to those who agree that Adam was the first to sin, but to those who appear to resist that idea and believe it was Eve who was.

Fair enough. Grace and peace to you.

[William]

I think in general terms we agree the story presents Adam as the first to sin and that his sin was allowing his wife to be tempted by the Serpent.

Ah... Okay. I mean, not to pick anything apart, really, but I don't really think we can say "allowing his wife to be tempted." I mean, he didn't really have anything to do with it. I think we agree on this, that maybe the better way to say that is that one of the ways Adam sinned was that he failed to correct Eve and stop Eve from succumbing to it. But still, okay.

Yeah - we don't need to devolve into semantics. Certainly if a husband is present and can help correct his wife's misinformation but doesn't...

Eve obviously thought that the god had commanded not to touch the fruit - Adam could have corrected her then but allowed his wife to believe that this is what the god had commanded.

We can agree that Eve was deceived...

Good...

...and I can agree that Eve's being deceived was the fault of Adam's inactivity in being unwilling to step up to the plate and defend his wife from the Serpents deceptive temptations.

Well, again, see above. I don't think anybody can blame Adam for Eve's being deceived, really. She was deceived by Satan, and Adam could have rectified that but did not. Again, I'm being a little picky, and I apologize for that, but it is what it is. I think you agree.

I don't agree because Adam remaining silent contributed directly to Eve being deceived. Eve was deceived by the belief that they were not allowed to even touch the forbidden fruit.

I am not presenting my other arguments to those who agree that Adam was the first to sin, but to those who appear to resist that idea and believe it was Eve who was.

Fair enough. Grace and peace to you.