What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[Purple Knight]

When the hell-fire baloney was invented, the people didn't have recourse to any Bibles so they could check it out for themselves. The Church told them what to believe, and the people thought that they were truly speaking for God when the Church said that if they didn't do what the Church said they would go to Hell. So they did what the Church said. PAY for masses and indulgences and to get someone out of purgatory, etc., etc. So they paid. The Church was very convincing. They had their ways, some of which was the grandeur of the cathedrals that would take a person's breath away, and all the pomp and circumstance that goes on in the churches---beautiful fixtures and clergy vestments and rituals.

I'm not sure this would work alone. I know, it's a lot, and the word "alone" seems silly to describe it.

Can you cow people into believing something that aligns with their nature? Sure.

Can you cow people into believing something antithetical to their nature? Not so sure.

[tam]

Peace to you all,

This is the choice:


I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live. Deut 30:19


Our choice is between life and death.

Our choice is not between life and eternal suffering.


It is similar to the choice that Adam had is it not? Eat from the Tree of Life and live forever; eat from the tree of knowing good(life) and bad(death), and die. Thanks to the great wisdom and mercy of God, that (first) death for Adam (and all of his offspring who he made subject to Death), is not permanent. Christ - the (tree of) LIFE - gave "life for life", so that we may live, and live forever.


**

But there is no eternal torment and suffering in 'the lake of fire' or in 'hades' (the world of the dead). Hades (the world of the dead) and Death are both thrown into the lake of fire (after being emptied out of the dead in them) and destroyed (that is what the fire does; consumes completely). And because there will be no more death, there is no more need for a world of the dead.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Difflugia]

BTW, Jesus never preached a hell-fire.

Probably not, but Luke reported that he did and, as a reminder, this is TD&D where the Bible is authoritative.

When he spoke of "Gehenna" (Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33) he was referring to an example of things being burned up to where they didn't exist any more (not eternal torture).

Matthew's Jesus may (may!) have thought of it that way. When Mark's Jesus spoke of Gehenna, it wasn't a place of torment, but neither was it a place of nonexistence. It was a place where the bodies of those slain by God's divine judgement forever smoke and writhe with maggots (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:24) as a continual and eternal reminder to those still alive.

Hades/Hell = the grave

Except in Luke, where it is the abode of the tormented damned.

Gehenna = complete obliteration

This is where, as you note, it gets confusing. Matthew's Jesus may mean Gehenna that way as distinct from Hades. Luke's Jesus, however, uses Gehenna and Hades interchangeably. Note, for example, the way that Luke modified Matthew's exhortation:

Matthew 10:28:

And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul [psyche]: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Luke 12:5:

But I will warn you whom you shall fear: fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him!

Note the contrast. Matthew makes the point that the men that hate you (v. 22) can kill the body, but only God can destroy the psyche (either "life" or "immortal spirit," take your pick) by casting it into Gehenna. Luke removed (I must presume intentionally) the bit about the psyche being destroyed, though. After the body is killed, whatever's left is cast into Gehenna without Matthew's destruction, a place where the "rich man" and other unrighteous will be tormented without even a (metaphorical, as you said) drop of water from the finger of Lazaraus.

Again, Jesus never taught conscious torture in a fire.

And again, and again, and again, and again, even after your error has been repeatedly shown to you.

You may continue to read out of the text what you wish (and I have no doubt you will do so). Simply repeating the same claim as a mantra, however, can never on its own add any more evidence to your claim any more than repeatedly adding zeroes will eventually produce a sum. You've yet to provide enough justification for yours being even the most reasonable reading, let alone the only reasonable one, as you keep saying.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Luke's Jesus, however, uses Gehenna and Hades interchangeably. Note, for example, the way that Luke modified Matthew's exhortation:

The wording is somewhat different, but I do not see from your examples that Luke uses Gehenna and Hades interchangeably.

Matthew 10:28:

And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul [psyche]: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Luke 12:5:

But I will warn you whom you shall fear: fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him!

Note the contrast. Matthew makes the point that the men that hate you (v. 22) can kill the body, but only God can destroy the psyche (either "life" or "immortal spirit," take your pick) by casting it into Gehenna. Luke removed (I must presume intentionally) the bit about the psyche being destroyed, though. After the body is killed, whatever's left is cast into Gehenna without Matthew's destruction, a place where the "rich man" and other unrighteous will be tormented without even a (metaphorical, as you said) drop of water from the finger of Lazaraus.

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man is in Hades. Hades is the word used.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk ... onc_989023

In Luke 12:5, Hades is not the word used. Gehenna is the word used.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/luk ... onc_985005

**

You (and others) may be tying these accounts together, but that does not mean that Luke (or Christ) used Hades and Gehenna interchangeably; or that these two accounts (luke 12:5 and the parable of lazarus and the rich man) are meant to be tied together/interchangeable.

I would suggest that the different words being used suggest the opposite, and the more detailed wording in Matthew would seem to support this suggestion.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

William, all denominations of Christendom claim that their beliefs are based on the Bible. Therefore, if a denomination is not ACTING according to what the Bible says, then that denomination is false. What religion that claims to be Christian actually follows the Bible? That religion will be the true Christian religion.

[JehovahsWitness]

When he spoke of "Gehenna" (Matthew 5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33) he was referring to an example of things being burned up to where they didn't exist any more (not eternal torture).

Matthew's Jesus may (may!) have thought of it that way. When Mark's Jesus spoke of Gehenna, it wasn't a place of torment, but neither was it a place of nonexistence.

It was a place where dead things were thrown and used to represent eternal non-existence, the ultimate damnation.






JW

[JehovahsWitness]

It was a place where the bodies of those slain by God's divine judgement forever smoke and writhe with maggots (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:24)

TO WRITHE

make twisting, squirming movements or contortions of the body.

MARK 9:48

... where the maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.

1. Mark 9:48 makes no mention of writhing
2. One would have to be alive to writhe and no live things were thrown into Gehenna.






JW



RELATED POSTS

Jude 1:7; Isaiah 66:24 ; Is FIRE really a symbol of after death torture ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 47#p970947

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GEHENNA, HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

[JehovahsWitness]

Hades/Hell = the grave

Except in Luke, where it is the abode of the tormented damned.

.... in one parabel (fictional story) give by Jesus to illustrate the stubborn heart conditions of the religions leaders alive in his day, not any afterdeath torture.




So-CALLED HELLFIRE TORTURE SCRIPTURES DEBUNKED

Luke 16:22-30 : Does the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus teach us about life beyond the grave?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p971077

Matthew 8:12 Luke 13:28 , Mat 13:42 , 50, Mat 22:13; 24:51; 25:30 : Does the bible say the dead " gnash their teeth"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 21#p971121

Luke 9:30 Is the TRANSFIGURATION an example of dead people communicating with the living?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 23#p970023

[JehovahsWitness]

LUKE 12:5:

But I will warn you whom you shall fear: fear him, who after he has killed has power to cast into hell. Yea, I say to you, fear him!

... After the body is killed whatever's left is cast , Gehenna

Biblically, when someone is killed nothing of them is left living. What remains is a lifeless body. Luke reports Jesus warning after having been killed one risks being thrown into Gehenna.

LUKE 12:5

"Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna*" - NWT

*Gehenna here being used symbol of eternal non-exitence, NOT of torture of the living.






JW



RELATED POSTS

Does Jesus say people have a SOUL and a body in Matthew 10:28?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 99#p971299

Do Jesus words in Matthew 16:26 indicate a SOUL can survive the death of the body?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p972644

[Difflugia]

When Mark's Jesus spoke of Gehenna, it wasn't a place of torment, but neither was it a place of nonexistence.

It was a place where dead things were thrown and used to represent eternal non-existence, the ultimate damnation.

That's what onewithinhim and you keep asserting without support. Can you defend (and not just repeat) your claim that Mark meant Gehenna to mean eternal non-existence?

It was a place where the bodies of those slain by God's divine judgement forever smoke and writhe with maggots (Mark 9:48, Isaiah 66:24).

1. Mark 9:48 makes no mention of writhing

You're right. The verse didn't explicitly say, so by apologist rules, they might have been special, non-writhing maggots.

2. One would have to be alive to writhe and no live things were thrown into Gehenna.

"Writhing with maggots" is an English idiom that implies so many maggots are present that the corpse (or whatever) appears to move of its own accord. To be clear, the corpses in Mark and Isaiah are dead, but they burn and are infested by maggots forever.

.... in one parabel (fictional story) give by Jesus to illustrate the stubborn heart conditions of the religions leaders alive in his day, not any afterdeath torture.

You and onewithinhim him keep saying that.

Luke's tells many parables that are fictional, yet contain elements that reflect reality even when given alternate, allegorical meanings. The parable of the sower describes a fictional farmer sowing fictional seed as an allegory for the Word of God, yet seeds exist, are eaten by birds, and wither when denied water after sprouting. The parable of the wicked tenants is fictional, yet vineyards are real. In fact, the vast majority, if not all, of Luke's other parables are fictional stories written around things that exist in reality. What reason do you have for thinking that Lazarus, the rich man, heaven, and Hades are different from Luke's perspective?