You MUST be born again

[Checkpoint]

You MUST be born again".

That is a very emphatic statement, made to Nicodemus, a Jewish teacher.

Here now is the whole passage, from John 3:

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council.
2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit b gives birth to spirit.

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?
11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

An interesting exchange, and an interesting subject.

How do you understand what Jesus taught in these verses?

What do you say being born again, or being born of the Spirit, actually is?

Is this for every follower of Jesus, or only for some believers?

Does it take place in this life, or in the one to come, or both?

Why is it so important?

Could it be similar to, or the result of, repentance and/or saving faith?

How would you explain verse 8?

[myth-one.com]

Paul is referring to believers only in 1 Corinthians 15. He does this by specifying ""they that are Christ's" and "in Christ shall all be made alive". He does not write anything in this context about the future of those not "in Christ" but still "in Adam"; unbelievers.

That's correct.

Paul connects the resurrection of Christians to the date of the Second Coming. He is writing specifically to the Christians at Corinth, and states nothing here about nonbelievers.

That is the time when all deceased believers will be resurrected.

Following their resurrection, they will spend the millennium with Christ:

Revelation 20:

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

After the millennium, the rest of the dead (all dead nonbelievers) will be resurrected:

Revelation 20:

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Verse 5 describes the resurrection of believers in verse 4 as being the first resurrection!

A thousand years after the first resurrection, the rest of the dead are resurrected. That would be the second resurrection!

The two resurrections described are a thousand years apart!

Each includes both believers and unsaved in one resurrection to one judgment. These two belong together. One event at his coming that Jesus pinpoints as happening "on the last day" involving both believers and unbelievers.

Why would resurrected believers need to be judged? They are sinless! There is nothing charged against them!

And believers are not yet prepared to begin their part in the judgment as judges.

And if these two events belong together, why does God place a thousand years between them?

I'll have to agree with God that there are two resurrections -- the first for believers at the Second Coming, and the second a thousand years later for the nonbelievers!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #51]

Checkpoint wrote:

Paul is referring to believers only in 1 Corinthians 15. He does this by specifying ""they that are Christ's" and "in Christ shall all be made alive". He does not write anything in this context about the future of those not "in Christ" but still "in Adam"; unbelievers.

That's correct.

Paul connects the resurrection of Christians to the date of the Second Coming. He is writing specifically to the Christians at Corinth, and states nothing here about nonbelievers.

That is the time when all deceased believers will be resurrected.

It is also the time when all deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected, according to Paul.

Acts 24:

14b I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
16 In this hope, I strive always to maintain a clear conscience before God and man.

Yes, a resurrection, not two but one.

Jesus agrees, and directly connects this resurrection to the Judgment, which then happens; not 1000 years later.

John 5:

27 And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice
29 and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

One resurrection to one Judgment, at the return of Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

One resurrection to one Judgment, at the return of Jesus.

Are you suggesting there is only one resurrection? Despite the fact that the book of Revelation alludes to two seperate resurrections ?

REVELATION 20 verse 4, 5

And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection;+ over these the second death has no authority,

RELATE POST

In what sense will the rest or the dead come To life (Rev 20)? [Onewithim]
viewtopic.php?p=965585#p965585




JW


FURTHER READING

Judgement day
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012645

Earthly resurrection
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003709#h=29

"the rest of the dead"
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989262#h=34

To read more please go to other posts related to...

RESURRECTION , MILLENIAL RULE and ... ]THE "RAPTURE"

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #51]

Checkpoint wrote:

Each includes both believers and unsaved in one resurrection to one judgment. These two belong together. One event at his coming that Jesus pinpoints as happening "on the last day" involving both believers and nonbelievers.

Why would resurrected believers need to be judged? They are sinless! There is nothing charged against them!

And believers are not yet prepared to begin their part in the judgment as judges.

And if these two events belong together, why does God place a thousand years between them?

I'll have to agree with God that there are two resurrections -- the first for believers at the Second Coming, and the second a thousand years later for the nonbelievers!

I'll have to agree with God too, that there is one resurrection to one Judgment. That is what He says, time and again.

He did not change His mind or His plan in His last book, Revelation.

He has no problem, but we do, or did.

For many years I agreed with much of what you say on this. Until I realised what I had been believing so strongly was out of line with the rest of the Bible.

[myth-one.com]

I'll have to agree with God that there are two resurrections -- the first for believers at the Second Coming, and the second a thousand years later for the nonbelievers!

All deceased believers will be resurrected at the Second Coming. This is the first resurrection.

Believers which are alive at the Second Coming will be changed and meet those resurrected in the air (some call this the "rapture").

All of those believers will then spend the thousand year millennium with the Word.

The rest of the dead will be resurrected after the millennium.

Those resurrected at this second resurrection will then face judgment.

Following judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire and experience their second death.

They "died" once as a human, and are now dying a second human death.

It will be their last experience for all eternity.

The Word and the now immortal believers will rule over the earth for ever and ever.

I'll have to agree with God too, that there is one resurrection to one Judgment. That is what He says, time and again.

Then please quote one example. Your quotes from Corinthians supported the above statements!

For many years I agreed with much of what you say on this. Until I realised what I had been believing so strongly was out of line with the rest of the Bible.

What I say is plagiarized from the Bible.

I take no credit.

[PinSeeker]

All deceased believers will be resurrected at the Second Coming. This is the first resurrection.

All deceased people -- believer and unbeliever alike -- will be resurrected at the Second Coming. This is the second (final) resurrection.

Believers which are alive at the Second Coming will be changed and meet those resurrected in the air (some call this the "rapture").

Believers who are alive at the Second Coming will be changed and along with resurrected believers will meet Jesus in the air. We will go out to greet the King when He comes -- like they did on Palm Sunday, except that this will be the ultimate fulfillment. Certainly, this is a rapturous event, but not "the Rapture" in the sense that premillennialists believe.

All of those believers will then spend the thousand year millennium with the Word.

No, at this point, the "thousand years" (millennium) will be concluded. God's Israel will be complete, all elect Gentiles brought in and the partial hardening now upon Israel removed.

The rest of the dead will be resurrected after the millennium.

This is a conflation of two different concepts. The "rest of the dead" in Revelation 20:5 is contrasted with "those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands," who "came to life and reigned with Christ" over the course of the millennium, and thus are unbelievers who have died over the course of the millennium. The first group (20:4) are the previously deceased physically resurrected at the Second Coming to life, and the second group (20:5) are the previously deceased physically resurrected at the Second Coming to judgment.

Those resurrected at this second resurrection will then face judgment.

This is true; all will be resurrected, but many (those resurrected to life) will have an Advocate, Christ Jesus.

They "died" once as a human, and are now dying a second human death.

There is no second physical death. They will finally be cast out and will not be able to enter the New Heaven and New Earth, the restored Garden, just as Adam and Eve and all of humanity were cast out from the first Garden.

It will be their last experience for all eternity.

It will be their last experience here, because after, they will no longer be here. They will be elsewhere, cast out from the renewed Garden -- God says in Revelation 21 that He is "making all things new," not that "I am making new things" -- just as Adam and Eve and all of humanity were from the first Garden. But for them it will be their introduction to their eternal dwelling and state of being.

What I say is plagiarized from the Bible. I take no credit.

Well, you did quote it, I'll give you that. But if your don't understand, and use the quotes to make points antithetical to what is being said... Well now that's a problem.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

All deceased believers will be resurrected at the Second Coming. This is the first resurrection.

All deceased people -- believer and unbeliever alike -- will be resurrected at the Second Coming. This is the second (final) resurrection.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

There is an order to the resurrections.

Christ is identified as the first fruits -- and that has already occurred:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

The resurrection which we await now is that of "they that are Christ's".

"They that are Christ's" are the believers -- or Christians!

And believers, and only believers will be resurrected at the Second Coming.

Neither PinSeeker nor anyone else can change the order which God has planned in advance!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #56]

Myth-one.com wrote:

I'll have to agree with God that there are two resurrections -- the first for believers at the Second Coming, and the second a thousand years later for the nonbelievers!



Why would resurrected believers need to be judged? They are sinless! There is nothing charged against them!

And if these two events belong together, why does God place a thousand years between them?

Believers are not yet sinless; they are ransomed, and their names are written in heaven.

The Judgment is the time God has set for the separation of believers and others. That is what Jesus illustrated in the parables of the sheep and the goats, and of the wheat and the tares/weeds.

The separation is revealed when the books are opened, to show whether or not a name is there.

God does not place the resurrection and the Judgment 1000 years apart.

That is what many do from their reading of Revelation 20, and their assumption of what "the first resurrection" refers to.


Checkpoint wrote:

I'll have to agree with God too, that there is one resurrection to one Judgment. That is what He says, time and again.

Then please quote one example. Your quotes from Corinthians supported the above statements!

I have already done so. It is John 5:27-29.

Here it is again, from Young's Literal Version:

27 and authority He gave him also to do judgment, because he is Son of Man.
28 ‘Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and they shall come forth; those who did the good things to a rising again of life, and those who practised the evil things to a rising again of judgment.

30‘I am not able of myself to do anything;

[myth-one.com]

I'll have to agree with God that there are two resurrections -- the first for believers at the Second Coming, and the second a thousand years later for the nonbelievers!

Why would resurrected believers need to be judged? They are sinless! There is nothing charged against them!

And if these two events belong together, why does God place a thousand years between them?

Believers are not yet sinless; they are ransomed, and their names are written in heaven.

I agree.

But as I claimed, resurrected believers are sinless, and do not face judgment.

The Judgment is the time God has set for the separation of believers and others. That is what Jesus illustrated in the parables of the sheep and the goats, and of the wheat and the tares/weeds.

No, every believer is born again of the Spirit at the Second Coming. Most will be resurrected or awakened to everlasting life from their slumber in their graves. And believers alive at the Secong Coming will be changed without having to "sleep":

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all (every Christian) be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

The separation is revealed when the books are opened, to show whether or not a name is there.

Correct, the names of those in the Book of Life are inheritors of everlasting life:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life receive their inheritance at the Second Coming:

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

After every believer has received their inheritance, there are no longer any living human Christians. This is where the separation occurs. Believers have become equal unto the angels as members of the spiritual Kingdom of God. Nonbelievers continue resting in their graves or living human life on the earth.

Believers have all been born again as spiritual bodied beings into the spiritual Kingdom of God:

Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:7)

God does not place the resurrection and the Judgment 1000 years apart.

Well, the scripture places the first resurrection and judgment a 1000 years apart, and God inspired the scriptures.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. (Exodus 20:11)

Should Christians be expecting a Sabbath, or period of rest?

There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. (Hebrews 4:9)

This period of rest, or Sabbath, will be equal in length of time to one of the six work periods which it follows. Therefore, the rest period for the people of God will be one thousand years, or the millennium!

The millennium is a day of rest because Satan will be restrained during this thousand-year period. We have been working against Satan:

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the Dragon, that serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:1-3)

After resting for a day (a thousand years is as a day in the eternal Kingdom of God), Satan is released and it's back to for awhile.

The rest of the dead are resurrected as mortal humans once again at that time, they face judgment, and everlasting life or everlasting death.

[PinSeeker]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

There is an order to the resurrections. Christ is identified as the first fruits -- and that has already occurred...

Agreed. He was indeed physically resurrected.

The resurrection which we await now is that of they that are Christ's".

Yes and no. Yes in that we are awaiting the physical resurrection, and the resurrection to life. This is the second resurrection. And it is only for those who are Christ's. We have already experienced the first resurrection, in which we were spiritually raised up with Him (Christ Jesus) and seated with Him (Christ Jesus) in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

And believers, and only believers will be resurrected at the Second Coming.

Only believers will be physically resurrected to the resurrection of life, sure. At the Second Coming. But unbelievers, those who remain in their sin and not in Christ, will also be physically resurrected at the Second Coming, but to the resurrection of judgment.

Jesus is very clear about this in John 5:28-29. All who are in their tombs -- all -- will hear His voice and com out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Neither PinSeeker nor anyone else can change the order which God has planned in advance!

LOL! Yes, I agree.