A Promise Unkept

[Miles]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

[Sojournerofthearth]

Okay, so let me just say, I was not calling the miracles of God a side show. I was just saying that, if that's all one is looking for, something to dazzle you, even Christ made the point to the crowds following Him around that they were just there to get free food and see a spectacular sight and were missing the whole point of what He was there to do, which was to direct people to God. Jesus did miracles. The Apostles did miracles. But the point of the miracles was to show them that God had the power to remake their lives, that His word was powerful. It wasn't done as a spectacle or to show folks what He could do.

At any rate, I never said God's miracles were a side show... my point was that you shouldn't make them into one.

Soj

[Miles]

..what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted?

Most prayers are in fact contrary to Gods will and puprose. All sincere prayers that are not are promised not to be granted but ...an answer: the answer may be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"

And this after I just got done asking. "what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose."


Moreover, in Matthew 18:19 we read:

"To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask."

I give up.

.

[2timothy316]

..what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose yet have gone ungranted?

Most prayers are in fact contrary to Gods will and puprose. All sincere prayers that are not are promised not to be granted but ...an answer: the answer may be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"

And this after I just got done asking. "what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose."


Moreover, in Matthew 18:19 we read:

"To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask."

I give up.

.

Who was Jesus talking to when he said this? He wasn't talking to the hypocritical Jews. He was talking to his disciples. Those that would ask for things according to God's will. Also, the 'on anything' is explained in 1 John 5:14. "And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that no matter what we ask according to his will, he hears us." Using a single scripture as a bases for a doctrine like putting a single piece of lumber in the ground and calling it a house. Thus Matthew 18:19 alone doesn't a good doctrine make.

[JehovahsWitness]

"...what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose."

Firstly you cannot possible know that there are "billions upon billions" of such prayers. I believe "All sincere prayers that are not contrary to god's will and purpose , will be answered; And that the answer will be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"" .




JW

For more, please go to other posts related to...

GOD, PRAYER and .....HUMAN SUFFERING

JW

[Miles]

"...what of all those billions upon billions of prayers that were not contrary to god's will and purpose."

Firstly you cannot possible know that there are "billions upon billions" of such prayers.

Of course "billions upon billions" is just a guesstimate. Duh! But considering the millions upon millions of concerned Christians, Jews, and Muslims who use and have used prayer over and over again to affect the suffering of themselves, loved ones, strangers, and even situations, I think "billions upon billions" is a fair estimate. Don't agree? Fine.

I believe "All sincere prayers that are not contrary to god's will and purpose , will be answered; And that the answer will be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"" .

Despite Matthew 18:19, which you obviously regard as a bad cherry.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

.. But considering the millions upon millions of concerned Christians, Jews, and Muslims who use and have used prayer over and over again to affect the suffering of themselves, loved ones, strangers, and even situations, I think "billions upon billions" is a fair estimate. Don't agree?

Do I agree millions may have prayed to their god for relief from their personal suffering ? Yes I agree. However you notice I said ....

I believe "All sincere prayers that are not contrary to God's will and purpose , will be answered; And that the answer will be "Yes", "No" or .... "Later"" .

Those that pray that human suffering be alleviated are indeed praying according to his will and purpose: the answer to such prayers is "LATER"

Since God has chose to allow human suffering, at least for the present time, praying that it one's personal suffering (or the suffering of loved ones) cease may not be in line with Gods will and purpose at that time. The answer to such a prayer may be: "no". Jesus taught his followers to pray "thy will be done on earth" not "MY will be done on earth".

Both The Apostle Paul and Jesus himself prayed for personal relief from their suffering. On both occassions the answer was "No".





JW





FURTHER READING Why does God allow evil and suffering?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... suffering/




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[Menotu]

[Replying to Miles in post #4]

Nope. Jesus said "anything," and without qualification.

While I agree with you in thinking in absolutes (and some people do see the bible in absolutes, but only when it fits their needs), I've found looking for absolutes in the bible is futile and will result in more confusion than clarification.
Again, I see your POV and don't disagree with it in principle, I think your quest won't reveal anything past gobble-tee-gook. But part of the fun is the journey, not the destination so.....

[nobspeople]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

There's always excuses to why prayers don't get answered. There also may be reasons. We don't know (though odds are there's no one to hear the prayers prayed).
At best, we can say if prayer benefits us. I'd say sometimes it does, (I've heard of studies that say simply praying calms people sometimes) but not likely because of any god (or God, if you like) but by connecting-the-dots on coincidences. And when was can't connect those dots, we say 'God works in mysterious ways' and other excuses.

[Miles]

Matthew 18:19 came up in a discussion the other day. It was being argued that while at one time god may have cared about mankind, he has since lost all interest in us, As evidence is his complete disregard of the promise he made (in his persona as Jesus) to grant prayers. It was pointed out that as much as peace on earth was prayed for, god has never granted it. That no matter how much two parents prayed for the recovery of their dying child, god let her die anyway. That no matter how much two children prayed for the return of their runaway pet Rover, god never saw fit to bring him back

Because a scriptural passage may read differently depending on which Bible one reads, I've listed six slightly different versions here so as to make it clear what Jesus is saying.

Matthew 18:19
(ERV)
To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask.

(NABRE)
Again, [amen,] I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.

(NRSV)
Again, truly I tell you, if two of you agree on earth about anything you ask, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

(KJV)
Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

(NMB)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree in earth about any manner of thing, whatsoever they desire, it shall be given them by my Father who is in heaven.

(RSVCE)
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.



So, what do you think happened here?

A) Jesus was wrong and misspoke about what his alter ego would do.

B) Jesus didn't misspeak, but somewhere down the line god the father changed his mind.

.

There's always excuses to why prayers don't get answered. There also may be reasons.

But the fact remains Jesus left no room for "excuses" or "reasons." He never qualified his statement "To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask." with any "however," "but," or "although." It is an unconditional promise, "my Father in heaven will do." An unconditional promise that god has failed to keep.


.

[2timothy316]

There's always excuses to why prayers don't get answered.

There are no excuses. If you never see answer to your prayer, then no is the answer. Or perhaps you got an answer you didn't want to hear or one that did come in the way you wanted it. The mystery to most is why the answer is no. It's a mystery because they do not accept or do not know the will of Jehovah God. There are prayers God doesn't even listen to. (John 9:31, Proverbs 28:9, 1 Peter 3:12)