YHWH

[Wootah]

Y - the hand
H - reveals
W - the nail
H - reveals

How is anyone that believes YHWH is God able to negate the evidence above that YHWH is Jesus?

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/je ... -is-yahweh

YHWH is the name above all names correct?

Philippians 2:9-11 says — Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Anyone want to directly confront both pieces of evidence?

[Revelations won]

Greetings,

I have a simple question. How many times in the New Testament is it stated that Jehovah speaks to Jesus Christ?

Can anyone provide the scriptures so string this?

Kind Regards,
RW

[tam]

Peace to you, RW,

[Replying to Revelations won in post #181]

There may be more, but I can list three instances. None write out the name of God, but the context makes it clear who is speaking to Christ (as recorded in the NT).

"...Father, glorify Your name!" Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again." John 12:28

And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Mark 1:11 (see also Luke 3:22)

For context on who His Father is, Christ states that His Father is the One whom the Jews claim as their God,

"If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me..." John 8:54

Who did the Jews claim as their God?

Sing to God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rides on the heavens by his name JAH, and rejoice before him. Psalm 68:4


And then there is the reference that Christ made to Psalm 110:1, at Matt 22:44, where Psalm 110:1 reads:

[YHWH] says to my Lord (the Messiah), "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

That's a great point about the prophets' names in the Old Testament and what they mean: "YHVH is..." "YHVH does..." etc. It's not just limited to the prophets, as some may be aware. And the great thing is, in the New Testament, we see Jesus say "I am..." and "I do..." to every single one of these things -- in addition to actually doing all the things mentioned. There is -- or should be, anyway -- no doubt that Christ is the Second Person of the triune Jehovah.

Jesus did not say "I AM," meaning that he is Jehovah. There are other translations of Exodus 3:14 (that Jesus supposedly quoted at John 8:58) that show that a better way of translating Exodus 3:14 is "I WILL be there howsoever I WILL be there" (Everett Fox) or "I WILL become whatsoever I please" (Rotherham) or "I WILL be that I WILL be" (Leeser).....to name just three examples. Therefore, your spurious insistence that Jesus quoted "I Am" in reference to himself doesn't hold water. He just as well would have said at John 8:58, "before Abraham came to be, I WILL." Does that make sense according to your view of Exodus 3:14? Clearly he did not apply Exodus 3:14 to himself. He was using fine grammatical Greek with superior knowledge of Hebrew to show merely that before Abraham existed, he existed. The way to correctly read John 8:58 is:

"Before Abraham was even born, I existed."

So say Jehovah's Witnesses and those who believe as they do. Wrongly. There is no doubt -- should be none, anyway -- that Christ is the Second Person of the triune Jehovah. Grace and peace to you.

Is that your counter-argument? Simply that I am wrong? Where is your reasoning on WHY I am wrong?

You have nothing to say about what Rotherham, Leeser, and Everett Fox have concluded about Exodus 3:14?


.

[PinSeeker]

So say Jehovah's Witnesses and those who believe as they do. Wrongly. There is no doubt -- should be none, anyway -- that Christ is the Second Person of the triune Jehovah. Grace and peace to you.

Is that your counter-argument? Simply that I am wrong?

Here it is, because I have gone into much detail in multiple places in multiple threads about why. If you want to review those, be my guest. I actually agree (and always did) that the way to correctly read John 8:58 is "Before Abraham was even born, I existed," but not acknowledging -- ignoring -- it's full impact is what's wrong, and that's the mistake that your references (Rotherham, Fox, Leeser) -- and therefore you -- make. Jesus is clearly saying there, among other things, that Abraham had a beginning, whereas He did not.

Where is your reasoning on WHY I am wrong?

See above. And below.

You have nothing to say about what Rotherham, Leeser, and Everett Fox have concluded about Exodus 3:14?

Sure, I do; they're wrong. For the same reasons I have expounded upon at length in multiple posts in multiple threads -- to multiple posters (you, Eloi, 2timothy316, etc.) Manipulations of the text to fit a predetermined narrative. If you want to read some valid commentary regarding Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58, then I would direct you to people like Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Van Til, Kuyper... on up to Clowney, Wilson, Sproul, etc.

John Calvin
Exodus 3:14 -- The verb in the Hebrew is in the future tense, "I will be what I will be;" but it is of the same force as the present, except that it designates the perpetual duration of time. This is very plain, that God attributes to himself alone divine glory, because he is self-existent and therefore eternal; and thus gives being and existence to every creature. God teaches Moses that He alone is worthy of the most holy name, which is profaned when improperly transferred to others; and then sets forth his inestimable excellency, that Moses may have no doubt of overcoming all things under his guidance.

John 8:58 -- As unbelievers judge only from the appearance of the flesh, Christ reminds them that He has something greater and higher than human appearance, which is hidden from the senses of the flesh, and is perceived only by the eyes of faith; and that, in this respect, he might be seen by the holy fathers, before He was manifested in the flesh. But He uses different verbs. Before Abraham was, or, Before Abraham was born, I am. By these words he excludes Himself from the ordinary rank of men, and claims for Himself a power more than human, a power heavenly and divine, the perception of which reached from the beginning of the world through all ages. (T)he power and grace of Christ, so far as he is the Redeemer of the world, was common to all ages. It agrees therefore with that saying of the apostle, Christ yesterday, and today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8)... For the context... demand(s) this interpretation. He had formerly said that Abraham longed for His day with vehement desire; and as this seemed incredible to the Jews, He adds, that He Himself also existed at that time. The reason assigned will not appear sufficiently strong if we do not understand that he was even then acknowledged to be the Mediator, by whom the Father was to be appeased. And yet the efficacy which belonged, in all ages, to the grace of the Mediator depended on his eternal Divinity; so that this saying of Christ contains a remarkable testimony of His Divine essence. We ought also to observe the solemn form of an oath, Verily, verily. (T)he present tense of the verb is emphatic; for He does not say, I was, but I am; by which He denotes a condition uniformly the same from the beginning to the end.

R.C. Sproul
Exodus 3:14 -- “I AM” is the holiest name for God in the Old Testament, and it is for use by the covenant people. That the Lord has a name at all indicates He is personal and has a real relationship with mankind. God’s name is in the present tense; He says “I am,” not “I was x, but am now y.” Our values or knowledge change, but the Lord remains the same (James 1:17). He is never inconsistent; we can therefore count on His wrath for sinners and His mercy for the repentant. As we have seen, the difference between our life and the Lord’s is in how He exists. It is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).

John 8:58 -- The Greek construction in John 8:58 behind the English translation “I am” (egō eimi) is the same one used when God revealed Himself to Moses. Thus, Jesus claimed for Himself equality with the Father by clearly using the divine name that the Father revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14. So Jesus identified Himself as eternal deity, declaring that He was alive as the second person of the triune Jehovah -- YHVH -- before Abraham was born. Clearly, the Jews understood Jesus to mean this, for they tried to stone Him for blasphemy. And if Jesus were an ordinary man, His claims would be blasphemous. But He could speak them without sin because He truly is the incarnate I am (as clearly stated in John 1:14).

Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

So say Jehovah's Witnesses and those who believe as they do. Wrongly. There is no doubt -- should be none, anyway -- that Christ is the Second Person of the triune Jehovah. Grace and peace to you.

Is that your counter-argument? Simply that I am wrong?

Here it is, because I have gone into much detail in multiple places in multiple threads about why. If you want to review those, be my guest. I actually agree (and always did) that the way to correctly read John 8:58 is "Before Abraham was even born, I existed," but not acknowledging -- ignoring -- it's full impact is what's wrong, and that's the mistake that your references (Rotherham, Fox, Leeser) -- and therefore you -- make. Jesus is clearly saying there, among other things, that Abraham had a beginning, whereas He did not.

Your "detail" is a whole lot of words that probably anyone would find wearisome to plow through. You are not concise, you are not clear as to what you are saying. You blind people with many words that you throw out and hope something will stick. Now, your above statement is uncharacteristically clear. You concede that Christ was saying "before Abraham was even born, I existed." Excellent! We agree! However, you go too far in saying that he was saying that he did not have a beginning. That is not inherent in what he said. He simply said that he existed before Abraham. He didn't say how long he had existed before Abraham. Please don't bend or twist what the text is actually saying. Thanks.

[onewithhim]

Where is your reasoning on WHY I am wrong?

You have nothing to say about what Rotherham, Leeser, and Everett Fox have concluded about Exodus 3:14?

Sure, I do; they're wrong. For the same reasons I have expounded upon at length in multiple posts in multiple threads -- to multiple posters (you, Eloi, 2timothy316, etc.) Manipulations of the text to fit a predetermined narrative. If you want to read some valid commentary regarding Exodus 3:14 and John 8:58, then I would direct you to people like Luther, Calvin, Edwards, Van Til, Kuyper... on up to Clowney, Wilson, Sproul, etc.

John Calvin
Exodus 3:14 -- The verb in the Hebrew is in the future tense, "I will be what I will be;" but it is of the same force as the present, except that it designates the perpetual duration of time. This is very plain, that God attributes to himself alone divine glory, because he is self-existent and therefore eternal; and thus gives being and existence to every creature. God teaches Moses that He alone is worthy of the most holy name, which is profaned when improperly transferred to others; and then sets forth his inestimable excellency, that Moses may have no doubt of overcoming all things under his guidance.

John 8:58 -- As unbelievers judge only from the appearance of the flesh, Christ reminds them that He has something greater and higher than human appearance, which is hidden from the senses of the flesh, and is perceived only by the eyes of faith; and that, in this respect, he might be seen by the holy fathers, before He was manifested in the flesh. But He uses different verbs. Before Abraham was, or, Before Abraham was born, I am. By these words he excludes Himself from the ordinary rank of men, and claims for Himself a power more than human, a power heavenly and divine, the perception of which reached from the beginning of the world through all ages. (T)he power and grace of Christ, so far as he is the Redeemer of the world, was common to all ages. It agrees therefore with that saying of the apostle, Christ yesterday, and today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8)... For the context... demand(s) this interpretation. He had formerly said that Abraham longed for His day with vehement desire; and as this seemed incredible to the Jews, He adds, that He Himself also existed at that time. The reason assigned will not appear sufficiently strong if we do not understand that he was even then acknowledged to be the Mediator, by whom the Father was to be appeased. And yet the efficacy which belonged, in all ages, to the grace of the Mediator depended on his eternal Divinity; so that this saying of Christ contains a remarkable testimony of His Divine essence. We ought also to observe the solemn form of an oath, Verily, verily. (T)he present tense of the verb is emphatic; for He does not say, I was, but I am; by which He denotes a condition uniformly the same from the beginning to the end.

R.C. Sproul
Exodus 3:14 -- “I AM” is the holiest name for God in the Old Testament, and it is for use by the covenant people. That the Lord has a name at all indicates He is personal and has a real relationship with mankind. God’s name is in the present tense; He says “I am,” not “I was x, but am now y.” Our values or knowledge change, but the Lord remains the same (James 1:17). He is never inconsistent; we can therefore count on His wrath for sinners and His mercy for the repentant. As we have seen, the difference between our life and the Lord’s is in how He exists. It is in God that we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28).

John 8:58 -- The Greek construction in John 8:58 behind the English translation “I am” (egō eimi) is the same one used when God revealed Himself to Moses. Thus, Jesus claimed for Himself equality with the Father by clearly using the divine name that the Father revealed to Moses in Exodus 3:14. So Jesus identified Himself as eternal deity, declaring that He was alive as the second person of the triune Jehovah -- YHVH -- before Abraham was born. Clearly, the Jews understood Jesus to mean this, for they tried to stone Him for blasphemy. And if Jesus were an ordinary man, His claims would be blasphemous. But He could speak them without sin because He truly is the incarnate I am (as clearly stated in John 1:14).

Grace and peace to you.

You accuse myself and others of manipulating the text of multiple Scriptures. I could say the same of you. We will have to leave it to lookers-on to reason for themselves as to what makes sense according to the whole Bible. Many scholars have said that Exodus does not have to say "I Am," but more probably says "I Will." You choose to ignore that and go with your other trinitarian translators who have to stick to "I Am" to smooth over the trinitarian position of Jesus equal to God, or, even God Himself.

"Ego eimi" is one of the most common---if not the most common---phrase in the Bible. It is uttered by everyone, not just Jesus Christ. If saying "I am" by someone means that he is God, then the blind man at John 9:9 must also be God. He uses the same words "ego eimi" that Jesus did a few verses earlier in chapter 8. According to you, there must be several Gods, because many people use this phraseology.

.

[PinSeeker]

You accuse myself and others of manipulating the text of multiple Scriptures. I could say the same of you.

You could. Fair enough. You'd be wrong, but yes, you could. And I'm sure you do.

We will have to leave it to lookers-on to reason for themselves as to what makes sense according to the whole Bible.

Agreed, although that's exactly my point... or one of them, anyway. Yes, according to all of God's inerrant, infallible word. The whole counsel of God. And Jesus Christ our Lord is the visible manifestation of that; the Word made flesh, the Man Whom God the Father has spoken to us by in these last days. Yes, absolutely.

Many scholars have said that Exodus does not have to say "I Am," but more probably says "I Will." You choose to ignore that and go with your other trinitarian translators who have to stick to "I Am" to smooth over the trinitarian position of Jesus equal to God, or, even God Himself.

Actually, no. As I said, it's both/and, not either/or. Perhaps you missed the very first sentence I related to you from John Calvin's commentary on Exodus 3:14. He writes, "The verb in the Hebrew is in the future tense, 'I will be what I will be'; but it is of the same force as the present, except that it designates the perpetual duration of time." I ignore nothing, and not only that, but rather, you and the commentators you mentioned do that very thing -- ignore (or perhaps merely remain oblivious to) the fact that, again, it is in the future tense, but it is of the same force as the present, except that it designates the perpetual duration of time. And, perhaps you missed what I related in the last sentence I related to you from Calvin's commentary, where he writes, "(T)he present tense of the verb is emphatic; for He does not say, I was (Jesus ), but I am; by which He denotes a condition uniformly the same from the beginning to the end." In other words, Jesus does not say merely in the past tense "I was" that He existed before Abraham, but rather in He says in an all-encompassing sense, past, present, and future, "I am," from eternity past to eternity future. Sproul relates the same. Indeed, any "smoothing over" is assuredly on your side of the fence, my friend.

"Ego eimi" is one of the most common---if not the most common---phrase in the Bible. It is uttered by everyone, not just Jesus Christ.

Agreed. But only the Father and Christ attribute it to themselves as their Name. And only the Father and Christ use it to denote the perpetual duration of time.

If saying "I am" by someone means that he is God, then the blind man at John 9:9 must also be God. He uses the same words "ego eimi" that Jesus did a few verses earlier in chapter 8. According to you, there must be several Gods, because many people use this phraseology.

LOL! Context is key, is it not, onewithhim? Observe:

1.) All the man is saying there is, "I am the guy who used to sit here and beg." My goodness. In like manner, Paul says "I am" in 1 Timothy 1:15 -- Paul is saying, "Yes, no one is as big a sinner as me." Neither the former beggar nor Paul -- nor anyone else who speaks in like manner -- is saying anything at all about their name, much less claiming that "I AM" is their very name. Only the Father (in Exodus 3:14) and Jesus Christ (in John 8:58) do that.

2.) In addition, everyone besides the Father and the Son uses it only in the present tense, i.e., John 9:9 -- "I am the former beggar, and you see me before you right now" -- and 1 Timothy 1:15 -- "I, Paul, am writing to you right now, and I am the most terrible of sinners right now." No one except the Father in Exodus 3:14 and the Son in John 8:58 uses I AM to reflect the perpetual duration of time, which corresponds to what we know about the Father, that "there is no variation or shadow due to change" (James 1:17) and with what we know about Christ, Who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

Wow. Well, what God says by His Spirit through Isaiah is true, that only He can make the blind to see, the deaf to hear, the lame to leap like a deer, and the mute tongue to sing for joy. And then of course Christ Jesus actually does each of these things... As I have said many times, my job is merely to proclaim. Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

We will have to leave it to lookers-on to reason for themselves as to what makes sense according to the whole Bible.

Agreed, although that's exactly my point... or one of them, anyway. Yes, according to all of God's inerrant, infallible word. The whole counsel of God. And Jesus Christ our Lord is the visible manifestation of that; the Word made flesh, the Man Whom God the Father has spoken to us by in these last days. Yes, absolutely.

Yes, indeed. I'm glad we agree on that.

[PinSeeker]

We will have to leave it to lookers-on to reason for themselves as to what makes sense according to the whole Bible.

Agreed, although that's exactly my point... or one of them, anyway. Yes, according to all of God's inerrant, infallible word. The whole counsel of God. And Jesus Christ our Lord is the visible manifestation of that; the Word made flesh, the Man Whom God the Father has spoken to us by in these last days. Yes, absolutely.

Yes, indeed. I'm glad we agree on that.

Yes, that's very encouraging. Now if only you and your brethren would actually do it... You know, believe God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- not according to your own preconceived notions, but according to what God actually says and does in and through His entire Word, not ignoring any part of it. Yeah now that would be truly great.

[onewithhim]

We will have to leave it to lookers-on to reason for themselves as to what makes sense according to the whole Bible.

Agreed, although that's exactly my point... or one of them, anyway. Yes, according to all of God's inerrant, infallible word. The whole counsel of God. And Jesus Christ our Lord is the visible manifestation of that; the Word made flesh, the Man Whom God the Father has spoken to us by in these last days. Yes, absolutely.

Yes, indeed. I'm glad we agree on that.

Yes, that's very encouraging. Now if only you and your brethren would actually do it... You know, believe God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit -- not according to your own preconceived notions, but according to what God actually says and does in and through His entire Word, not ignoring any part of it. Yeah now that would be truly great.

There is not a shred of evidence throughout the Bible of a triune God. I hope some day you will be able to see that. We DO believe God, that He is ONE individual, and, as Jesus said of his Father---He is "the only true God," (John 17:3) and Jesus actually worships his Father as his own God (John 20:17). Jesus distinguishes between God and himself. Two different Persons, with the Son taking a subordinate role throughout the Scriptures. It's very clear to those who have eyes of discernment.

.