YHWH

[Wootah]

Y - the hand
H - reveals
W - the nail
H - reveals

How is anyone that believes YHWH is God able to negate the evidence above that YHWH is Jesus?

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/je ... -is-yahweh

YHWH is the name above all names correct?

Philippians 2:9-11 says — Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Anyone want to directly confront both pieces of evidence?

[PinSeeker]

I said what I meant, Pinseeker.

Right. That's the problem. Tammy.

Again, there are earthly lords, while there but one heavenly Lord... just as there are earthly authorities, while there is but one heavenly Authority. The Bible is very clear on this.

You are changing the text of the verse you are giving an offhand reference to, Pinseeker. The passage reads as follows:
.

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist...

.
The passage does not state what you have claimed.

My goodness. Actually, I wasn't referring to any specific verse, but rather stating in a generalizing sense what several passages put side by side say both individually and together. You could certainly include this reference in 1 Corinthians 8, and I'm fine with that. You could also include what Paul says in Romans 13:1 (regarding earthly authorities) and following is another. Paul says similar things in Colossians 2 and Titus 3, among others, and Peter, John, and Jude all do the same thing. Yes, it does state, albeit in different verbiage what I "claimed" (asserted).

It does not mean that at all (that Christ being King of Kings and Lord of lords somehow elevates Him over His Father). I responded to this (and Philippians 2) in my response to RW, above.

Right. Again, I know very well you would hold to this always. But again, it is one of two possible effects of the position you hold. See my response to onewithhim above, specifically (adapted and paraphrased), "... inadvertently... one of two things result, either 1.) the de-elevation of Christ to the status of man and thus equal to man or 2.) the elevation of Christ above the Father because Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords." One of the two is unavoidable, inevitable.

You have to be completely inconsistent to make that claim.

I have been intensely consistent. And will continue to be, Lord willing. Obviously, you think me consistently wrong, but most assuredly, I think the exact same of you.

Nor can you say that calling Christ "Lord" means that one is suggesting Christ is '...superior to God the Father or even denying God the Father..."

I can say and will continue to say that that is one possible inadvertent effect -- the other being to de-elevate Christ and relegate Him to the status of man/creature -- of believing as you do. One or the other terribly wrong conclusions is the inevitable effect, inadvertent or not. I'm very glad you agree that both conclusions are terribly wrong, but they are unavoidable. That you can't see this is astounding, frankly.

I have remained consistent.

Well sure! You have been consistently wrong in this exchange.

You are the one who is changing the rules.

I'm changing nothing. The fact that you can't see the difference -- or refuse to acknowledge said difference -- between Adonay (my Lord) and adown (my lord) is astonishing. Now, I'm going to be a little facetious, here, but the point will stand; it's really fairly comparable to not seeing a difference between John (a man of that name) and a john (bathroom). Yet you cling to this absurdity, and try to characterize it as an "inconsistency" on my part. Wow.

if Christ is the One speaking in Psalm 23, via holy spirit, then it is Christ calling [YHWH] His Shepherd.

Stop. David is speaking in Psalm 23. He's acknowledging that YHWH is the good shepherd. Christ is speaking in John 10, and he acknowledges Himself to be the good shepherd that David was speaking of -- singing about, actually -- in Psalm 23.

Christ being the Good Shepherd, does not mean that He is God (YHWH).

Most assuredly, it does.

Grace and peace to you, Tammy.

[PinSeeker]

You said that Christ is referred to by a title that is specific to YHWH. What title would that be? "LORD"? Surely you don't mean that.

the title I am referring to ... is not immediately "LORD" (YHWH) but אֲדֹנָי ('Adonay), ..

This blue thing HERE----> אֲדֹנָי <----- is used exclusively for Almighty God ? Are you really sure about that?



JW

You're not following, JW. Try again if you like. Maybe this will help. I know I'm not supposed to cut and paste, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Here's my recent response to onewithhim:

Well, let me quote myself:
.

...at the end of Psalm 110:1 (not Psalms 110:1 ), the Hebrew word used there for "my Lord" is אֲדֹנָי ('Adonay), which is an emphatic form of the Hebrew word used for "my lord" אָדוֹן, ('adown) and is a title spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence.

.
Notice the capitalization/non-capitalization ("Lord" and "lord") in English; that is proper to denote the difference in the two Hebrew words; more on that in a moment. For now, though, that should be clear enough... I'll expound a bit:

(N)o, the title I am referring to in my statement (again, quoted above) is not immediately "LORD" (YHWH) but אֲדֹנָי ('Adonay), which (again) is an emphatic form of the Hebrew אָדוֹן, ('adown) and is a title spoken in place of "LORD" (YHWH) in Jewish display of reverence. But by extension (and elementary logic), we can with absolute validity refer directly to "LORD" (YHWH) because... well... I'll put it in the form of a geometric proof:

'C' = 'B'
Christ is equal to אֲדֹנָי ('Adonay)

and:

'B' = 'A'
אֲדֹנָי ('Adonay) is equal to יְהֹוָה (YHWH, Yehovah, "LORD")

therefore:

'C' = 'A'
Christ is equal to יְהֹוָה (YHWH, Yehovah, "LORD")

Regarding the capitalization in English, there are earthly lords of various kinds, but they do not, can not, hold a candle to, much less be compared to or seen as equal to the Lord, who is Jesus Christ. This is why the capitalization in English is important -- to distinguish between the the two words just as the Hebrew (אֲדֹנָי ['Adonay], אָדוֹן, ['adown])! The ironic thing is, to deny and/or to ignore this clear Biblical distinction between -- as properly rendered in English -- 'Lord' and 'lord,' as Jehovah's Witnesses and some others do, in order to maintain and stick to the narrative that Christ is not YHWH (with the Father and in the form of man) and is even somehow inferior to God/YHWH, they at least inadvertently do two things, which are both terribly wrong and contradictory in and of themselves:
.
1. de-elevate Christ Himself to the status of man and thus equal to man

2. elevate Christ above the Father because Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords
.
Both of these conclusions would certainly be rejected by Jehovah's Witnesses and those who believe on this subject along the same lines, but one or the other is the unintended implication/effect, as I said. As I said to Tammy above, not seeing the difference -- or refusing to acknowledge it -- between Adonay (my Lord) and adown (my lord) is really quite astonishing. Facetiously speaking, it's really fairly comparable to not seeing a difference between John (a man of that name) and a john (bathroom).

There. Maybe I saved you the trouble of having to read back in the thread and try to understand what I have actually been saying. Grace and peace to you, JW.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Again, there are earthly lords, while there but one heavenly Lord... just as there are earthly authorities, while there is but one heavenly Authority. The Bible is very clear on this.

You are changing the text of the verse you are giving an offhand reference to, Pinseeker. The passage reads as follows:
.

For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist...

.
The passage does not state what you have claimed.

My goodness. Actually, I wasn't referring to any specific verse, but rather stating in a generalizing sense what several passages put side by side say both individually and together. You could certainly include this reference in 1 Corinthians 8, and I'm fine with that.

The passage at 1 Corinthians 8 does not state that there are many earthly lords but only one heavenly Lord. It says that there are many 'lord and gods' whether in heaven or on earth... but that for US... there is One God (the Father) from whom all things come and for whom we exist; and one Lord (Jaheshua, the Christ), through whom all things come and through whom we exist.

I thought you believed that the Father is greater than the Son (at least with respect to authority), and that the Father and the Son are two persons?

It does not mean that at all (that Christ being King of Kings and Lord of lords somehow elevates Him over His Father). I responded to this (and Philippians 2) in my response to RW, above.

Right. Again, I know very well you would hold to this always. But again, it is one of two possible effects of the position you hold. See my response to onewithhim above, specifically (adapted and paraphrased), "... inadvertently... one of two things result, either 1.) the de-elevation of Christ to the status of man and thus equal to man or 2.) the elevation of Christ above the Father because Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords." One of the two is unavoidable, inevitable.

You're just repeating your position, Pinseeker, without responding to any of the points I wrote in my post. Therefore there is nothing for me to do except refer you back to my post, and the points therein.

You are the one who is changing the rules.

I'm changing nothing. The fact that you can't see the difference -- or refuse to acknowledge said difference -- between Adonay (my Lord) and adown (my lord) is astonishing. Now, I'm going to be a little facetious, here, but the point will stand; it's really fairly comparable to not seeing a difference between John (a man of that name) and a john (bathroom). Yet you cling to this absurdity, and try to characterize it as an "inconsistency" on my part. Wow.

Well I have seen problem of why we are talking passed each other on the matter of consistency over the word being translated as "Lord". I have edited my post #160, and if you click on the links therein, you might see the problem as well.

if Christ is the One speaking in Psalm 23, via holy spirit, then it is Christ calling [YHWH] His Shepherd.

Stop. David is speaking in Psalm 23. He's acknowledging that YHWH is the good shepherd. Christ is speaking in John 10, and he acknowledges Himself to be the good shepherd that David was speaking of -- singing about, actually -- in Psalm 23.

I provided a great deal more explanation than that. If you do not address those points, then again, there is nothing more I can do except refer you back to my previous post and the points made therein.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

You said that Christ is referred to by a title that is specific to YHWH. What title would that be? "LORD"? Surely you don't mean that.

the title I am referring to ... is ... אֲדֹנָי ('Adonay), ..

EXODUS 32:22

And Aaron said [to MOSES] “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot.

Your blue thing אֲדֹנָי looks exactly like the tilte Aaron used for MOSES (look at the yellow and compare). ....

source: https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/32-22.htm

Clearly this bleu thing HERE----> אֲדֹנָי <----- is NOT used exclusively for Almighty God









RELATED POSTS

LORD Word Study (greek)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p866178

Who does LORD apply to in the Christians Greek Scriptures?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 27#p866727

- Watchtower references (Jam 5:8)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 39#p866339

Which Lord stood by Paul? Jehovah or Jesus (2 Tim 4:18)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#p869960

[PinSeeker]

EXODUS 32:22

And Aaron said [to MOSES] “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot.

Your blue thing אֲדֹנָי looks exactly like the tilte Aaron used for MOSES (look at the yellow and compare). ....

source: https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/32-22.htm

Clearly this bleu thing HERE----> אֲדֹנָי <----- is NOT used exclusively for Almighty God

Well, I agree with you on that very last thing you wrote above, but that's only half the story. The Hebrew in Exodus 33:22 is quite different than that of Psalm 110:1, so what you say at the outset about the title looking exactly the same is quite contrary to the actual case. It affirms my assertions rather than yours. Or maybe you know that's wrong and you're... not being forthright, I don't know. But observe, if you will:

.

"And Aaron said, “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot." (bolded text: from Exodus 33:22 -- אָדוֹן 'adown) https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/exo ... conc_82022

"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.' " bolded text: from Psalm 110:1 -- אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay https://www.blueletterbible.org/esv/psa ... onc_588001

Or, let's look at the source you yourself provided:

.

"And Aaron said, “Let not the anger of my lord burn hot." (bolded text: from Exodus 33:22 -- אֲדֹנִ֑י ’ă-ḏō-nî) https://biblehub.com/text/exodus/32-22.htm

"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.' " bolded text: from Psalm 110:1 -- לַֽאדֹנִ֗י la-ḏō-nî, https://biblehub.com/text/psalms/110-1.htm

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Hebrew in Exodus 33:22 is quite different than that of Psalm 110:1, ..."The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.' " bolded text: from Psalm 110:1 -- לַֽאדֹנִ֗י la-ḏō-nî, https://biblehub.com/text/psalms/110-1.htm[/indent]

Thank you for pointing that out; yes one says "of my Lord" (’ă·ḏō·nî) and the other says "to my Lord" (la·ḏō·nî ). la·ḏō·nî that looks like this ---> לַֽאדֹנִ֗י <--- is used uniquely for Almighty God...

...except for the other dozens of times it isn't.

Full list : https://biblehub.com/hebrew/ladoni_113.htm

[tam]

[Replying to tam in post #163]

Peace to you all,


I will leave my previous posts to stand regarding the text and word used (and on other matters) - and in those links, the word being translated as 'my lord' is not used exclusively for [YHWH] - but one or two further questions if I may, so that we can reason a bit as well?

Do you (Pinseeker or anyone else) believe that the author and the scribes of Psalm 110:1, believed that the Messiah to come was YHWH? Because if the word being used to describe the Messiah was actually reserved ONLY for [YHWH], then you must believe that the author and the scribes as well as all subsequent Jews and Israel, believed that the Messiah was [YHWH].

Yet we know that this is not the case. Subsequent Jews and Israel do not believe that the Messiah is [YHWH]. Would they not have to, if the word being translated as 'my lord' was reserved only for [YHWH]?


**

And though there are some different schools of thought... as far as I understand... many Jews suggest it was someone other than David speaking about David (as 'my lord')... so that the second 'my lord' was referring to David or some other king. Again, how could they believe that, if the word being translated as 'my lord' is a word that Israel had reserved only for [YHWH]?

(We know that the verse is referring to the Messiah -the Chosen One of JAH - because Jaheshua has said so; but that does not change the word being used).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

Thank you for pointing that out; yes one says "of my Lord" (’ă·ḏō·nî) and the other says "to my Lord" (la·ḏō·nî ).

LOL! The bolded words above are just prepositions in English. The first that you point out should be 'lord' (uncapitalized, 'adown) and the second should be 'Lord' (capitalized, 'Adonay).

My goodness. People will see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear. My goodness.

Grace and peace to you, JW.

[PinSeeker]

I will leave my previous posts to stand regarding the text and word used (and on other matters) - and in those links, the word being translated as 'my lord' is not used exclusively for [YHWH]...

Right, and I agreed -- regarding 'a down, which was the Hebrew in all your links. There are earthy lords of many kinds.

Do you (Pinseeker or anyone else) believe that the author and the scribes of Psalm 110:1, believed that the Messiah to come was YHWH? Because if the word being used to describe the Messiah was actually reserved ONLY for [YHWH], then you must believe that the author and the scribes as well as all subsequent Jews and Israel, believed that the Messiah was [YHWH].

Good question. First of all, the author of Psalm 110 was David. It is a Psalm of David, after all.

That said, we can look to what Jesus actually said in Mark 12 for a little insight here:
.

“How can the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? David himself, in the Holy Spirit, declared, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand, until I put Your enemies under Your feet.’ David himself calls Him Lord. So how is He his son?” (vv. 35b–37a)

Jesus was actually referring directly to Psalm 110 here, which is the single most frequently cited Old Testament text in the New Testament. In this psalm, written by (again) David, the king of Israel makes reference to two Lords. In the original Hebrew of the psalm, the first “Lord” translates the Hebrew word YHWH, God’s covenant name (which we agree on). The second “Lord” translates the Hebrew word 'Adonayi, a title given to YHWH elsewhere in in multiple instances in the Old Testament. Jesus is pointing out that the Messiah, who is one of the sons of David, is also much more. He is one to whom God Himself gives the title of deity. In other words, the Messiah is truly man and truly God.

In answer to your question, I do believe David knew very well he was speaking of YHWH; he knew the books of Moses (the Pentateuch) very well, and he knew what he was saying. See Exodus 4, where Moses is speaking to YHWH (in the burning bush) on Mount Sinai. Specifically see verses 10 and 13, where he calls YHWH "Lord" ('Adonay) twice in the same breath! David would have been very well aware of this Scripture passage and would have been very purposeful in using the language he used. And David’s reference to a future descendant of his as my “Lord” (as opposed to “son”) suggests that David saw Him as his superior because this future offspring would not be a mere human figure, but rather an embodiment of the divine YHWH Himself (cf. Mark 12:25-27; Acts 2:34-35). Yes, I do believe David knew that YHWH would eventually come to earth, but of course he could not see the future, so I feel pretty certain that he could conceive of how it would all unfold, so maybe only in a veiled way. And I think that's probably true of all the Old Testament writers, from Moses on down, but again, in a very veiled way. I think the first two people to really know what was happening were Joseph (Matthew 1:20-24) and Mary (Luke 1:26-38), who were visited by an angel in a dream (Joseph) and by Gabriel (Mary). Ultimately, though, it makes no difference, really, because the Holy Spirit, also YHWH, breathed the Word of the Father into all the writers of the Bible in their times at the will of the Father and at the appointed time(s). There is no doubt about who the real Author of the Bible was/is (2 Timothy 3:16-17), except among those who just don't believe Scripture.

Yet we know that this is not the case.

Some think "this" is not the case. You and some of the other posters here hold the same opinion. So be it.

Subsequent Jews and Israel do not believe that the Messiah is [YHWH]. Would they not have to, if the word being translated as 'my lord' was reserved only for [YHWH]?

Well, again, the word translated 'my Lord' ('Adonay) is used elsewhere in the Old Testament for YHWH. And Tanakh believers know that very well. But we know from Paul in Romans 11 that a partial hardening has come upon Israel, and this hardening will be removed when the fullness of the Gentiles (those whom God has and will call) is brought in to the Israel of God, which will consist of people of every tongue, tribe, and nation. The treatment given (or purposely not given, in many cases) to Psalm 110 by Jews (who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah and deny the New Testament altogether) is very "interesting," to say the least.

And though there are some different schools of thought... as far as I understand... many Jews suggest it was someone other than David speaking about David (as 'my lord')... so that the second 'my lord' was referring to David or some other king. Again, how could they believe that, if the word being translated as 'my lord' is a word that Israel had reserved only for [YHWH]?

Indeed, this hardening I spoke of... I mean, it's hard to imagine. But that's it at work. We can see the outward effects, but really understanding it is another thing entirely.

Grace and peace to you.

[Revelations won]

Dear Pin Seeker,

As I have read your responses to Tam and JW, I compliment you on your clear presentations! You are on target and your points are well supported and established.

I suspect that the big problem is that both Tam and JW is that they both fail to understand and falsely assume that YHWH is God the Father. YHWH is God the Son. Christ himself clearly stated that his Father was "greater than he".


27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

First: I think it is very clear that Peter’s testimony in answer to Christ’s question was based upon "revelation from God the Father".

Second : Christ testified "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works".

Do you realize that in the scriptures Christ is referred to as Son of man about 81 times?

If Christ were not God the Son, then he could not come in the glory of his Father and reward every man according to his works ?


John 3:11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

It would appear the both Tam and JW have the same unbelief problem that the unbelieving Jew had in Christ's day.


John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

One should also observe that is was not Christ, but the unbelieving Jews who made the above false railing accusations against Christ. I love this beautiful response which Christ gives in the following verses.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


It might be well for anyone to gain new understanding from the above and understand one of the mysteries of godliness is the clear revelation that Jesus Christ is DIVINE and is indeed the the very SON of the Eternal FATHER. He is indeed Lord of lords and King of kings! He is the very Emmanuel or GOD with us as stated in:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Was “Jesus the Christ” foreordained before the foundations of the earth were laid to become the savior of all mankind as stated by Peter?

Is Jesus Christ indeed the very “Immanuel” or God with us as the scriptures clearly state?

Ise Jesus Christ the author and finisher of our salvation?

Is Jesus Christ the “Holy one of Israel” who alone, has provided the gift of resurrection for all mankind?

Did not “Jesus the Christ “ truly have glory with the “Father” before he came to this earth as the literal “Son of God”?

Did he not also by his sacrifice bring further glory to his father?

You or I or anyone has NO authority from God to falsely claim that “Jesus the Christ” has made any mistake regarding his second coming.


Ezekiel 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.


I would challenge anyone to show from the scriptures that above scriptures found in Ezekiel 37:11-14 apply to anyone other than Jesus Christ.


It might be well for anyone to gain new understanding from the above and understand one of the mysteries of godliness is the clear revelation that Jesus Christ is DIVINE and is indeed the the very SON of the Eternal FATHER. He is indeed Lord of lords and king of kings! He is the very Emmanuel or GOD with us as stated in:

Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.


I so personally Testify and bear personal witness that Jesus Christ is God the Son who, under the direction of God the Father, organized and created this earth and all things therein, and who is the very “Immanuel” or “God with us” as clearly stated in the scriptures. It is he alone who atoned for our sins and provided by his grace the free gift or common salvation known as the resurrection to all mankind.

Pin Seeker keep up the good work! You have done well and remember that there are also in our day those who reject Christ's teachings and rely on their own "private interpretations" to base their opinions. The scriptures truly mean just what they say.

Kind regards,
RW