"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Miles
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"Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

.

The disciple whom Jesus loved is referred to, specifically, six times in the book of John.


John 13:23-25
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
24 Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
25 He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?

__________________________

John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

__________________________

John 20:1-2

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

__________________________

John 21: 7
7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was
naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

__________________________

John 21: 20-23
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

__________________________

John 21: 24
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


As for which disciple Jesus was in love with, in the Wikipdia article: "Disciple whom Jesus loved"; the main candidate is none other than John himself

"Some scholars have additionally suggested a homoerotic interpretation of Christ's relationship with the Beloved Disciple, although such a scriptural reading is disputed . . . . Tilborg suggests that the portrait in the Gospel of John is "positively attuned to the development of possibly homosexual behaviour". . . .

The relationship between Christ and John was certainly interpreted by some as being of a physical erotic nature as early as the 16th century (albeit in a "heretical" context) - documented, for example, in the trial for blasphemy of Christopher Marlowe, who was accused of claiming that "St. John the Evangelist was bedfellow to Christ and leaned always in his bosom, that he used him as the sinners of Sodoma". In accusing Marlowe of the "sinful nature" of homosexual acts, James I of England inevitably invited comparisons to his own erotic relationship with the Duke of Buckingham which he also compared to that of the Beloved Disciple. Finally, Francesco Calcagno, a friar of Venicefaced trial and was executed in 1550 for claiming that "St. John was Christ's catamite".

Dynes also makes a link to the modern day where in 1970s New York a popular religious group was established called the "Church of the Beloved Disciple", with the intention of giving a positive reading of the relationship to support respect for same-sex love."


However, based on John 11:5: "Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus", and John 11:3 "Therefore his sisters sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick." some scholars feel Lazarus of Bethany is a better candidate,

Others, through a bit of tap dancing, have proposed that the beloved disciple was originally Mary Magdalene

Or, Jesus's beloved disciple may have been "a priestly member of a quasimonastic, mystical, and ascetic Jewish aristocracy, located on Jerusalem's prestigious southwest hill, who had hosted Jesus' last supper in that location"

Whatever the case, none of these scholars seem to have denied a homosexual connection with the Beloved Disciple. Even today there are those who believe Jesus was gay.




"Was Jesus gay? Probably"
.............by Paul Oestreicher

I preached on Good Friday that Jesus's intimacy with John suggested he was gay as I felt deeply it had to be addressed.

Jesus was a Hebrew rabbi. Unusually, he was unmarried. The idea that he had a romantic relationship with Mary Magdalene is the stuff of fiction, based on no biblical evidence. The evidence, on the other hand, that he may have been what we today call gay is very strong. But even gay rights campaigners in the church have been reluctant to suggest it. A significant exception was Hugh Montefiore, bishop of Birmingham and a convert from a prominent Jewish family. He dared to suggest that possibility and was met with disdain, as though he were simply out to shock.

After much reflection and with certainly no wish to shock, I felt I was left with no option but to suggest, for the first time in half a century of my Anglican priesthood, that Jesus may well have been homosexual. Had he been devoid of sexuality, he would not have been truly human. To believe that would be heretical.
source


SO, what do you, members of Debating Christianity and Religion, think? Jesus: likely gay or not?


.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

earl wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:52 am
In fact John uses love 54 times loved 30 times,loveth 18 times in all more than any of his associates in the NT.
DO THE GOSPELS REPEATED REFERENCES OF JESUS LOVE FOR THE APOSTLE JOHN IMPLY HOMOSEXUAL ATTRACTION?

It is important to note that unlike English that has just one word for love, Greek has four. Thus in Greek we can distinguish between romantic feelings of an erotic/sexual nature (Greek: eros) and principled, empathetic (nonsexual) godly love, namely agapē.
To learn more on agapē love please see LINK below
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 51#p969651
Unsurprisingly none of the references to Jesus love for John use the greek eros. We can reasonably conclude therefore that the repeated references to Jesus particular "love" for the "beloved disviple" do not of themselves indicate homosexual attraction.







JW

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #22

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

Do you love any men? If you do are you gay?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #23

Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:51 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:16 am Two questions for you

#1 Do you hold that the word "love" is synonymous with sexual attraction?
#2 Do you agree most fathers "love" their baby daughters?
A rather childish point you're trying to make, don't you think.


.
Actually the point that JW is making is the KEY to your assertion. It's not childish either, it is academic.
Do you know what the different Greek words for love are?

The Greek word for having a sexual love for a person is eros. So lets see if that word or a form of it is used to describe Jesus love for John was sexual.
Lets take your quoted scriptures and see what Greek word was used...

John 19:26-27 uses the word ēgapa for love.
https://biblehub.com/greek/25.htm
Egapa is not a sexual or passionate kind of love. It means to wish well or esteem.

John 20:1-2 uses ephilei.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5368.htm
From the word philos, to be a friend to and have affection for a person. Can be used to describe the love a close friend or a cherished object.

John 21:7 uses egapa again.

John 21:20 uses egapa as well.

Based on the Greek language, there is no support for the "Jesus was gay assertion".

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Double post.
Last edited by 2timothy316 on Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #25

Post by bjs1 »

There are three Greek words all translated as “love.”

There is agape, which is selfless love. In the NT this is most commonly connected to the love of God.
There is philo, which is the love of friends or family. It is similar to what we call platonic love.
There is eros, which is sexual love or attraction. It is where we get the word erotic.

Every instance that the Gospel of John uses the phrase “the disciple whom Jesus loved,” the word translated as love is the Greek word agape.

We are told that Jesus held agape and philo kinds of love for people. None of the four canonical gospels attribute eros to Jesus at any point. Any love of that nature that Jesus experience went unrecorded, most likely because he did not enter into a romantic relationship with anyone during the three years that his disciples were with him.


To the general question:

Of course not. It’s a silly theory. There is no evidence to support the hypothesis. In that culture a homosexual rabbi would have been noticeable enough that, if it were true, there is virtually no chance that no one would have remarked on it.

However, the idea is controversial. That means it will sell books, which is often far more important than accuracy.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

Post #26

Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:25 am
Miles wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:51 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:16 am Two questions for you

#1 Do you hold that the word "love" is synonymous with sexual attraction?
#2 Do you agree most fathers "love" their baby daughters?
A rather childish point you're trying to make, don't you think.


.
Actually the point that JW is making is the KEY to your assertion. It's not childish either, it is academic.
It's childish in the sense that it's so obvious even a well educated child could recognize what JW's point is. Hence, it isn't worth making.
Do you know what the different Greek words for love are?
Yes I do.
The Greek word for having a sexual love for a person is eros. So lets see if that word or a form of it is used to describe Jesus love for John was sexual.
Lets take your quoted scriptures and see what Greek word was used...

John 19:26-27 uses the word ēgapa for love.
https://biblehub.com/greek/25.htm
Egapa is not a sexual or passionate kind of love. It means to wish well or esteem.

John 20:1-2 uses ephilei.
https://biblehub.com/greek/5368.htm
From the word philos, to be a friend to and have affection for a person. Can be used to describe the love a close friend or a cherished object.

John 21:7 uses egapa again.

John 21:20 uses egapa as well.

Based on the Greek language, there is no support for the "Jesus was gay assertion".
As Strong's concordance explains their usages in John.

agapaō:

"of persons
to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly"

phileō
φιλέω philéō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling;

(My emphases.) Both of which are applicable to homosexual attachment.


.
Last edited by Miles on Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:16 pm As Strong's concordance explains their usages in John.

agapaō:

"of persons
to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly"

phileō
φιλέω philéō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling;

My emphases. Both of which are applicable to homosexual attachment.


.
I have both of these types of love for men and I'm a man. I am both fond of and have affection for my father. I also have personal attachment to him. Yet the idea of having sex with him doesn't interest me at all. Other homosexuals that love in this way doesn't make everyone that loves that way homosexual. This is a logical fallacy called hasty generalization. The rush to conclude that Jesus was gay based on feelings everyone has with no other supporting evidence.

What you'd have to prove is that these types of love are unique to homosexuals only and you have not done that, nor can you.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by Miles »

2timothy316 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:34 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:16 pm As Strong's concordance explains their usages in John.

agapaō:

"of persons
to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly"

phileō
φιλέω philéō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling;

My emphases. Both of which are applicable to homosexual attachment.


.
I have both of these types of love for men and I'm a man. I am both fond of and have affection for my father. I also have personal attachment to him. Yet the idea of having sex with him doesn't interest me at all. Other homosexuals that love in this way doesn't make everyone that loves that way homosexual. This is a logical fallacy called hasty generalization. The rush to conclude that Jesus was gay based on feelings everyone has with no other supporting evidence.

What you'd have to prove is that these types of love are unique to homosexuals only and you have not done that, nor can you.
I don't have to prove bupkis. All I "have" to do is show that Jesus had a special love for one particular disciple, which I've done. And as I see it, with six instances reiterating this special love for one particular male disciple goes a long way in exposing a homosexual love.

Consider: If the disciple had been a female, I strongly doubt many would object to characterizing Jesus's love as heterosexual.

John 13:23
23 Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his women, whom Jesus loved.

__________________________

John 19:26
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the woman standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

__________________________

John 20:2


2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other woman, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

__________________________

John 21: 7
7 Therefore that woman whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

__________________________

John 21: 20
20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the woman whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?

__________________________

John 21: 24
24 This is the woman which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.


Nope, objecting to Jesus being in love with one of his disciples is more homophobic horror writ large than anything.


.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by 2timothy316 »

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:52 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:34 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:16 pm As Strong's concordance explains their usages in John.

agapaō:

"of persons
to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly"

phileō
φιλέω philéō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling;

My emphases. Both of which are applicable to homosexual attachment.


.
I have both of these types of love for men and I'm a man. I am both fond of and have affection for my father. I also have personal attachment to him. Yet the idea of having sex with him doesn't interest me at all. Other homosexuals that love in this way doesn't make everyone that loves that way homosexual. This is a logical fallacy called hasty generalization. The rush to conclude that Jesus was gay based on feelings everyone has with no other supporting evidence.

What you'd have to prove is that these types of love are unique to homosexuals only and you have not done that, nor can you.
I don't have to prove bupkis.
And that is why you fail, because you don't think you have to prove anything. You MUST show that Jesus had a sexual desire towards John. Not just a love of him. If you think that love = sexual desire then I'm so sorry you think that way. This means your idea of love is deranged, in that it can only be expressed physically. Debate is about facts and not using the hasty generalization fallacy until we accept what you say. Its not going to happen.

If I talk more about how much I favor my father more than others that doesn't make me gay either.
Are you familiar with the hasty generalization fallacy? Do you understand what it means? You keep using in the hopes at some point it will prove you right, but it doesn't.

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Re: "Was Jesus Gay? Probably"

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Post by bjs1 »

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:16 pm As Strong's concordance explains their usages in John.

agapaō:

"of persons
to welcome, to entertain, to be fond of, to love dearly"

phileō
φιλέω philéō, fil-eh'-o; from G5384; to be a friend to (fond of (an individual or an object)), i.e. have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling;

(My emphases.) Both of which are applicable to homosexual attachment.


.
I am curious what kind of attachment these phrases would not be applicable for. One can “be found of” or have a “personal attachment” to a grandparent or a daughter or a dog or a painting or a song or a car or a shady place under a certain tree or chocolate. Do you consider all of these to be sexual love?

Also, there is a specific Greek word for romantic or sexual love (eros). If the author of John meant to convey sexual love, why would he not use that word?

The obvious answer seems to be that he did not wish to convey romantic love. Other than a desire for controversy, why do you continue to hold your position?
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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