Do we choose God or does God choose us?

Manu · Post by **Manu** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:24 pm

Just want to know some perspectives out there.

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:02 pm

beloved57 wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:Yes clearly it is favoritism.
If we had a father or mother that played favorites we would say they are poor parents and later after years of therapy they might get over it.
If an employer does it we call it discrimination or sexual harassment.
God is not into affirmative action.
But it is called grace when it is something unfair that God is doing.
I also makes the idea of the atoning death of Jesus arbitrary and needless.
But then there are all those Christians that insist that it is the dumb unchosen sinner that chooses to go to hell do to the biased love of God.
One thing about theology it doesn't need to be rational as long as it is a mystery.
I must be a great comfort to be chosen.
God is Creator and can do what He pleases. This is His world and everything therein. He is not nor ever has been dependent on none and never will be. All things owe there exisitence to God.

God is very gracious in having created some for eternal happiness , when he could have if he pleased created all for damnation, that is his perogative, He is God.

As Far as salvation being a mystery, well it is to those that God has not chosen, but it is revealed to His chosen ones :

Matt 13

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

If you say so.

" Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25

“The Lord reigns.... He shall judge the peoples righteously.” Psalm 96:10

Exodus 20:3
You shall have no other gods before Me.
Psalm 8:5
Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings('elohim' Or than God; than the gods; Septuagint than the angels )and crowned him with glory and honor.
Psalms 82:6
Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said Ye are gods?
Genesis 3:22
And Jehovah God saith, `Lo, the man was as one of Us, as to the knowledge of good and evil;
Genesis 3:5
for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.
Isaiah 1:18
Come, I pray you, and we reason, saith Jehovah, If your sins are as scarlet, as snow they shall be white, If they are red as crimson, as wool they shall be!

It seems like it more God can do anything so we can believe anything we like.
You ideas about God's grace seems awfully self-serving.

beloved57 · Post by **beloved57** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:28 pm

" Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25 [/quote

Yeah sure , but he defines what right is, not you or I !

If God wanted to condemn every one to hell , its right because He is God !

“The Lord reigns.... He shall judge the peoples righteously.” Psalm 96:10

Yep He sure is, But judging righteously is what He defines as righteously, not you or I. How can a piece of dust like you or I determine and set in Judgment of God, who created you for His purpose ?

Rom 9

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

It seems like it more God can do anything so we can believe anything we like.
You ideas about God's grace seems awfully self-serving.

You are entitled to your opinion but its not going to change the truth !

prov 14

12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

You will be Judged one day By God !

Cathar1950 · Post by **Cathar1950** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:16 pm

Yeah sure , but he defines what right is, not you or I !

It is called the divine command theory of morality and with it all its problems.
One of the major flaws is that it means God can do evil and it is good.
Morality becomes arbitrary.

If God wanted to condemn every one to hell , its right because He is God !

Rather circular don’t you think?

Yep He sure is, But judging righteously is what He defines as righteously, not you or I. How can a piece of dust like you or I determine and set in Judgment of God, who created you for His purpose ?

I doubt even God has such a worthless opinion of you or I but I suppose if a low self esteem makes you feel like you glorifying God, then good for you.
Until we are dust we are forced to determine the judgments of God and our own morality within our social boundaries. I guess if your not going to question the traditions handed down that presume to know God them your methods is as good as a piece of dust and you act the part.

You are entitled to your opinion but its not going to change the truth !

Of course you are entitled to yours, as that is what you have produced. Yet oddly enough I can’t help but wonder what a piece of dust could really have to say. Given you have not even voiced your opinion but that of others you hold true what ever the truth is seem elusive and unexplainable as you can not find yourself worthy to question.

You will be Judged one day By God !

Maybe true and until then I can only count on the god given reason I have so that I don’t believe any stupid foolish theory about God and his unquestionable purposes.

beloved57 · Post by **beloved57** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:18 pm

Cathar1950 wrote:
Yeah sure , but he defines what right is, not you or I !
It is called the divine command theory of morality and with it all its problems.
One of the major flaws is that it means God can do evil and it is good.
Morality becomes arbitrary.

If God wanted to condemn every one to hell , its right because He is God !
Rather circular don’t you think?

Yep He sure is, But judging righteously is what He defines as righteously, not you or I. How can a piece of dust like you or I determine and set in Judgment of God, who created you for His purpose ?
I doubt even God has such a worthless opinion of you or I but I suppose if a low self esteem makes you feel like you glorifying God, then good for you.
Until we are dust we are forced to determine the judgments of God and our own morality within our social boundaries. I guess if your not going to question the traditions handed down that presume to know God them your methods is as good as a piece of dust and you act the part.

You are entitled to your opinion but its not going to change the truth !
Of course you are entitled to yours, as that is what you have produced. Yet oddly enough I can’t help but wonder what a piece of dust could really have to say. Given you have not even voiced your opinion but that of others you hold true what ever the truth is seem elusive and unexplainable as you can not find yourself worthy to question.

You will be Judged one day By God !
Maybe true and until then I can only count on the god given reason I have so that I don’t believe any stupid foolish theory about God and his unquestionable purposes.

I do not worry about keeping MY Gods commandments He causes His election of grace to walk in His ways, he ensures it !

ezk 36:

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This is what My God does, you can keep yours, I will have none of Him..

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:12 am

beloved57 wrote: Gods purpose I believe is to conform His elect to the image of His Son !

Do you claim to be one of the elect? If so how do you know?

beloved57 wrote: The answer to your first question is what is Bhagavad Gita ?

Your question says a lot...

The Bhagavad Gita is an ancient Indian sacred text, part of the Mahabharata. It provides guidance of the development of a spiritual path and the discovery of the nature of being.

It is of much of value in this regard and a more interesting read, IMHO, than the bible.

beloved57 wrote: Answer to your part 2 , is No I do not expect for anyone to believe the truth of the gospel unless God grants them faith... Majority of people today reject the true Gospel.

So the reason I do not believe is because god has not granted me faith. it is god's fault that I do not believe in him.

beloved57 wrote: Yes our destinies have been determined by The Almighty and irrevocably so, I am just so glad He choose me for salvation.

Again, how do you know you are chosen?

beloved57 · Post by **beloved57** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:17 pm

b51 ask:

Do you claim to be one of the elect? If so how do you know?

Yes I am one of the elect, Thank God , I know this by faith ! Faith is spiritual suasion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That He died and saved His people from their sins

Matt 1 20, 21

20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His people are his chosen ones, His elect, His sheep, His seed, His church. And that does not include everyone...

Your question says a lot...

The Bhagavad Gita is an ancient Indian sacred text, part of the Mahabharata. It provides guidance of the development of a spiritual path and the discovery of the nature of being.

It is of much of value in this regard and a more interesting read, IMHO, than the bible.

You can keep it, I have not interest in that stuff...

So the reason I do not believe is because god has not granted me faith. it is god's fault that I do not believe in him.

Faith is given to those that are saved, faith brings the elect into the knowledge and realization of their salvation.

Is it Gods fault ? No, God created you for a specific purpose either to have you live in eternal salvation and bliss or to condemn you to hell for your sins, either way God is not in fault, he is just being God.

Again, how do you know you are chosen?

lol...That must bother you..I have answered that question above..

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:36 am

beloved57 wrote:b51 ask:

Do you claim to be one of the elect? If so how do you know?

Yes I am one of the elect, Thank God , I know this by faith ! Faith is spiritual suasion of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That He died and saved His people from their sins

Sorry I am still a little confused as to how you KNOW you are one of the elect.

Is it because you have faith? If so, faith is belief without evidence and knowledge requires evidence. What evidence do you have that you are elect?

Also all that have faith elect?

beloved57 wrote:
The Bhagavad Gita is an ancient Indian sacred text, part of the Mahabharata. It provides guidance of the development of a spiritual path and the discovery of the nature of being.

It is of much of value in this regard and a more interesting read, IMHO, than the bible.
You can keep it, I have not interest in that stuff...

It is not mine to keep.

beloved57 wrote:
So the reason I do not believe is because god has not granted me faith. it is god's fault that I do not believe in him.
Faith is given to those that are saved, faith brings the elect into the knowledge and realization of their salvation.

Again faith is belief without evidence. Do ou beleive you are elect without any evidence?

beloved57 wrote: Is it Gods fault ? No, God created you for a specific purpose either to have you live in eternal salvation and bliss or to condemn you to hell for your sins, either way God is not in fault, he is just being God.

God created me without faith. I am condemned to hell through no fault of my own.

This doesn't sound like a just and loving god?

beloved57 wrote:
Again, how do you know you are chosen?
lol...That must bother you..I have answered that question above..

Doesn't bother me so much as the fact that what you are saying appears illogical and doesn't make sense.

beloved57 · Post by **beloved57** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:19 am

bernee says

Again faith is belief without evidence. Do ou beleive you are elect without any evidence?

Your definition of faith is belief without evidence, but thats not the bibles definition. Your definition is meaningless, but here what Gods word sys faith is:

heb 11:

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.

1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

1Now faith is the (A)assurance of things (B)hoped for, the conviction of (C)things not seen.

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Now, I am not going to spend no more time trying to convince you of the biblical definition of faith, because its a spiritual thing, and I do not believe you have any spiritual life so this can become futile , explaining spiritual truth to a spiritually dead person..

bernee51 · Post by **bernee51** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:45 am

beloved57 wrote:bernee says

Again faith is belief without evidence. Do ou beleive you are elect without any evidence?

Your definition of faith is belief without evidence, but thats not the bibles definition.

Then the bible is illogical. No faith (i.e. belief) is required if evidence exists. The thing is KNOWN

beloved57 wrote:
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Things HOPED for. So you HOPE you are elect.

Unseen evidence...it is intersting how the non-existent resembles so closely the invisible.

beloved57 wrote: Now, I am not going to spend no more time trying to convince you of the biblical definition of faith, because its a spiritual thing, and I do not believe you have any spiritual life so this can become futile , explaining spiritual truth to a spiritually dead person..

And you do as those bereft of logic always tend to do...resort to ad hominems.

A fine example of christendom.

beloved57 · Post by **beloved57** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:56 am

bernee51 wrote:
beloved57 wrote:bernee says

Again faith is belief without evidence. Do ou beleive you are elect without any evidence?

Your definition of faith is belief without evidence, but thats not the bibles definition.
Then the bible is illogical. No faith (i.e. belief) is required if evidence exists. The thing is KNOWN

beloved57 wrote:
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Things HOPED for. So you HOPE you are elect.

Unseen evidence...it is intersting how the non-existent resembles so closely the invisible.

beloved57 wrote: Now, I am not going to spend no more time trying to convince you of the biblical definition of faith, because its a spiritual thing, and I do not believe you have any spiritual life so this can become futile , explaining spiritual truth to a spiritually dead person..
And you do as those bereft of logic always tend to do...resort to ad hominems.

A fine example of christendom.

I have given you my answer ! You will not understand it because you are spiritually dead !