Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[2timothy316]

Well as far as i am concerned i have answered your question with the answer i gave..

You did? Please direct me to the post number that you gave the answers to: Who or what God does consult to know the future? Where does an evil deed reside if the person that is supposed to do it doesn't exist yet? I have re-read all of your posts and I can't find it. Or if you did, then it wasn't clear enough for me to find it. Either please direct me to the post or clarify your answers.

[PinSeeker]

YOU will say to me then... Now who is Paul refering to with this YOU ??

Quite obviously, anyone -- ANYONE, Christian or not -- who might object or react negatively to what he is saying about God, here, that God is sovereign regarding His salvation and that it is He who elects some to eternal life and others otherwise because of His will, His eternal decree -- His grace and mercy, which He gives to whom He chooses and does not give to those whom He does not choose.

Paul then goes on to tell these mere human beings not to bring forth their protest against the will of God because they do not understand...

Well, yes, but we're all "mere human beings," Adstar. So Paul is heading of an objection that anybody might have regarding God and His purpose of Election:

FOR THE BELIEVER:
Why did God have mercy on you and not others? Why did God make me for honorable use? Not because we have done anything good or bad or because of your strength or will, but because He chose to.

REGARDING THE UNBELIEVER:
Why did God not have mercy on others, even though they be nice folks? Why did He make them -- whoever they are -- for dishonorable use? Not because they have done anything good or bad or because of their strength or will, but because He chose to.

Good luck with standing before God on the day of judgement and trying to justify why you supported such a denigration of the character of the LORD and his will.

I hope you were looking in the mirror when you said that...

As for the Clay... The Clay exists before God decides which way to mound it, Right ?????

Well, right, but the point is that God, as our Maker, created the person before he/she existed. This is exactly what Paul was saying when he used the examples of Jacob (from birth a "vessel of mercy," made for honorable use) and Esau (from birth, a "vessel of wrath," made for dishonorable use) earlier in Romans 9:

• "...though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad -- in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls..." [Romans 9:11]

Of course in the calvinist mind the Clay is somehow the human being before they are born.. And that human beings are born pre-prepared vessels of honor or wrath.

This is just silliness... a terribly false characterization of Calvinistic understanding, dreamed up so as to presumably easily knock it over.

Okay, believe and do as you will. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Its a hard undertaking to skip over the Job.

Ahhhhhh... such a great allusion/reference. Well worth discussing if you're up to it, Brian.

Grace and peace to you.

[brianbbs67]

Its a hard undertaking to skip over the Job.

Ahhhhhh... such a great allusion/reference. Well worth discussing if you're up to it, Brian.

Grace and peace to you.

We can do that. We can do all things. The worst scenario is we are both wrong. I have been wrong and and ok with it.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 74 by brianbbs67]

Okay, so what did you mean when you referenced Job?