Free will & destiny

[Menotu]

Can both Free Will and Destiny exist at the same time?

If so, how?

If not, why not?

Within Christianity, which exists?
Some say everyone has free will, but looking back at the biblical stories, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Someone had to fall to temptation and eat the apple; someone had to betray Jesus.
Where those people acting on free will, or were they forced to play their part in the grand plan?
If they had free will, surely God knew what they would do and had to plan accordingly?
Or does his plan supersede all human understanding?
And if that's the case, how are we to understand anything about him?

[PinSeeker]

I have indeed embraced the Word of God and in doing so i completely reject the faulty Calvinist interpretation of them..

I think what you're rejecting -- or reacting against -- is what is commonly called 'Hyper-Calvinism, which is a terrible distortion of John Calvin's understanding of Scripture. And you're not alone in that; it's quite common. At any rate, again, what's right is right. At the very least, anyone who thinks God does, is the author of, or is even capable of evil clearly misunderstands (or purposely twists horribly) all of Scripture. But you're welcome to your opinion, as everyone is. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

God knew (either from exercising his powers of forknoweledge or from an examination of his heart) that Pharoah of Egypt would not concede and let the Israelites free. The responsibility for his stubbornness however rests entirely with Pharaoh the individual, God did not exercise any pressure to make him stick to his stubbornness.

This I agree with COMPLETELY. God does not cause people to sin, else He be a sinner Himself, which is surely not the case.

He certainly didn't create him in his mother's womb to be stubborn.

Well, right, but Pharoah certainly was a sinner from his mother's womb, just as David and every other mere human being was/is. This is the result of Adam's sinfulness, resulting from the Fall of Genesis 3 and bequeathed to all mere humans from that time forward.

That Jehovah (YHWH) told Moses beforehand how Pharoah reacts is essentially a non issue. Pharaohs destiny was fixed by Pharoah himself.

Well, again, yes and no. Again like David (and all people), God ordained -- which, Biblically, means established; appointed; decreed -- all the days of Pharoah's life before he had even lived one (Psalm 139).

Yes Pharaoh was not created to be mind controlled automation having no free will.. He resisted God twice of his own free will. But after He resisted God twice then God chose to take control over his mind to use pharaoh as a vessel of wrath.

No, Pharoah was always a "vessel of wrath." He may have looked like a "vessel of mercy" for a time, but if so, he went away from that, proving that he was not a vessel of mercy (of God's Elect) in the first place. This is what John tells us:

• "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:18-19, emphasis added]

Regarding which kind of "vessel" we are, only God as Creator has any choice in that matter (the Potter has a right over the clay, Romans 9:21). Pharoah's having been made so was not as a result of his resisting God, but as a result of God's predestination -- the purpose God created him for, which was to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, enduring Pharoah with much patience, in order to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy (those He was saving), which He prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9). Such is the case for all unbelievers who remain in that state.

Even in the New Testament we read a prophecy of the end times when people who refuse to embrace the love of the truth of the gospel so that they might be saved are given over to delusions and deceptions so that they will believe the lying signs and wonders that will deceive the world in the final great deception of satan.

Right; this is Romans 1. But this is not a prophecy, but just a truth.

So by their own free will they will reject the Gospel love of the truth through which they would have been saved.

Well, through which they could have been given faith so that they would receive the Gospel and thus be saved.

But knowing that they are doomed God will send them strong delusions...

God is most assuredly NOT a deceiver.

...so that they will believe the great deception of the Anti-christ who will be doing miracles by the power of satan. In the end everyone serves God. Some as vessels of grace and others as vessels of wrath.. But the choice is ours in whom we shall trust..

Well, Satan IS the false -- counterfeit -- savior, and thus not really any kind of "savior" at all. But I agree; every knee will bow and every tongue confess -- eventually -- that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11J. and Yes, experientially speaking, the choice is ours in whom (or Whom) we shall trust, but even our choice -- regarding who that 'whom' is... regarding salvation itself -- ultimately is according to the will of God, Who appoints, as in Acts 13:48, some (not all) to eternal life in Christ Jesus:

• "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Grace and peace to you, Adstar.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 41 by JehovahsWitness]

Mind control is one of the most heinous crimes one can commit. To deny someone their freedom of thought and self determination is a truly a base, evil, despicable way of achieving ones aims and it is blasphemous to suggest God needs to resort to such methods.

That's what makes indoctrination of infants and children with religious beliefs the equivalent of abuse and just as much a criminal practice as that attributed to God.

I agree. Thankfully that's nothing we Jehovahs Witnesses practice, indeed mercifully most religious people I know would never stoop to such criminality when educating their children and passing on their moral and spiritual values.

JW

I disagree. It is precisely what JWs and all religious sects do. It is borne out by the geographical and social distribution of specific beliefs. I can understand why people deny the practice. It is essentially a denial of the free will of an individual to make informed decisions when they are mature enough to evaluate the information they are being fed.

[Adstar]

This doesn't fit what you're presenting. You're saying that before a person even even born their evil deeds only exists in the mind of your god. In your analogy the volcano already exist, so yes of course an eruption can be predicted. Yet what you're presenting is that the volcanologist knows when a volcano is going to erupt before the even volcano exists.

Why do you say the evil existed in Gods mind.. God foreknow the evil that they would do.. If i know the sun is going to come up in the morning that does not mean there is a solar system existing in my mind with the sun rising in the east.. I do not cause the sun to rise because i foreknew it would..

As for the volcano and volcanologist it was an analogy and no analogy covers all aspect of what it is being used for.. God is not a volcanologist God is way superior..

Actually, you have the Calvinist interpretation.

No i do not believe that God creates one person to believe in him and be saved and create another person to have no hope of salvation being blocked from the Way of the LORD Jesus.. So i am Not a Calvinist..

My belief is that God does NOT know what evil things a person is going to do before they exist. There is no way a person can decide something before they have a mind to make a decision. In my view since there is no person existing yet there is nothing for God to foresee.

Because you are seeing things from a human perspective.. You cannot understand how God can do what He clearly can do..

What did God reveal to Zechariah when he was still a child::

Jeremiah 1: KJV
4 "Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, {5} Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. {6} Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child."

Yet you said and I quote you in post 31, "I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence.."

According to your own statement, the evil act of the person existed in your god's mind before it existed in the person's mind.

No.. That's your peculiar way of seeing things.. No sin exists in the LORD.. He foreknows what we will do.. Our sin but having foreknowledge of our sin does not make Him a sinner..

My thoughts on time are that the future doesn't exist unless Jehovah God wills it. Since nothing evil can come from Jehovah that means no evil exists in the future unless a person already exist with the intend are carrying out the an evil deed. Now Jehovah can foresee an evil deed before it happens if the person exists but He cannot see the evil deed of a person before they exist, because there is no human brain to think of the deed.

And these are Your thoughts...

It is my understanding that time is not linear. There is only this moment in time and once it's gone, it's gone forever. We can move forward and backward in space but time has only one direction and that is forward. We can only move at the pace of the Arrow of time. We can't move faster than it so viewing the future of a person that doesn't exist now is not possible. We can guess as humans what another human is going to do, but Jehovah knows the person's heart, DNA, everything to know what their future holds. But if a person doesn't exist there is nothing to foreknow because time is not playing like some movie on a DVD. There is no way to fast forward to watch some future event because the future doesn't exist yet.

So when prophets are given visions of the future and those future events come true then what????

[Adstar]

God knew (either from exercising his powers of forknoweledge or from an examination of his heart) that Pharoah of Egypt would not concede and let the Israelites free. The responsibility for his stubbornness however rests entirely with Pharaoh the individual, God did not exercise any pressure to make him stick to his stubbornness.

This I agree with COMPLETELY. God does not cause people to sin, else He be a sinner Himself, which is surely not the case.

He certainly didn't create him in his mother's womb to be stubborn.

Well, right, but Pharoah certainly was a sinner from his mother's womb, just as David and every other mere human being was/is. This is the result of Adam's sinfulness, resulting from the Fall of Genesis 3 and bequeathed to all mere humans from that time forward.

That Jehovah (YHWH) told Moses beforehand how Pharoah reacts is essentially a non issue. Pharaohs destiny was fixed by Pharoah himself.

Well, again, yes and no. Again like David (and all people), God ordained -- which, Biblically, means established; appointed; decreed -- all the days of Pharoah's life before he had even lived one (Psalm 139).

Yes Pharaoh was not created to be mind controlled automation having no free will.. He resisted God twice of his own free will. But after He resisted God twice then God chose to take control over his mind to use pharaoh as a vessel of wrath.

No, Pharoah was always a "vessel of wrath." He may have looked like a "vessel of mercy" for a time, but if so, he went away from that, proving that he was not a vessel of mercy (of God's Elect) in the first place. This is what John tells us:

• "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." [1 John 2:18-19, emphasis added]

Regarding which kind of "vessel" we are, only God as Creator has any choice in that matter (the Potter has a right over the clay, Romans 9:21). Pharoah's having been made so was not as a result of his resisting God, but as a result of God's predestination -- the purpose God created him for, which was to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, enduring Pharoah with much patience, in order to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy (those He was saving), which He prepared beforehand for glory (Romans 9). Such is the case for all unbelievers who remain in that state.

Even in the New Testament we read a prophecy of the end times when people who refuse to embrace the love of the truth of the gospel so that they might be saved are given over to delusions and deceptions so that they will believe the lying signs and wonders that will deceive the world in the final great deception of satan.

Right; this is Romans 1. But this is not a prophecy, but just a truth.

So by their own free will they will reject the Gospel love of the truth through which they would have been saved.

Well, through which they could have been given faith so that they would receive the Gospel and thus be saved.

But knowing that they are doomed God will send them strong delusions...

God is most assuredly NOT a deceiver.

...so that they will believe the great deception of the Anti-christ who will be doing miracles by the power of satan. In the end everyone serves God. Some as vessels of grace and others as vessels of wrath.. But the choice is ours in whom we shall trust..

Well, Satan IS the false -- counterfeit -- savior, and thus not really any kind of "savior" at all. But I agree; every knee will bow and every tongue confess -- eventually -- that Jesus Christ is Lord (Philippians 2:10-11J. and Yes, experientially speaking, the choice is ours in whom (or Whom) we shall trust, but even our choice -- regarding who that 'whom' is... regarding salvation itself -- ultimately is according to the will of God, Who appoints, as in Acts 13:48, some (not all) to eternal life in Christ Jesus:

• "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Grace and peace to you, Adstar.

This post is wrong.. I did not say the things you have quoted me as saying.. I do not know how this post came to be,, but the quotes from post 52 here are not from me..

[2timothy316]

Yet you said and I quote you in post 31, "I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence.."

According to your own statement, the evil act of the person existed in your god's mind before it existed in the person's mind.

No.. That's your peculiar way of seeing things.. No sin exists in the LORD.. He foreknows what we will do.. Our sin but having foreknowledge of our sin does not make Him a sinner..

Yes it does because the sin existed before the sinner. There is no other 'way of seeing things'. If your god's mind was the only place the sin existed before the sinner then your god is the source of the sin. It can't be painted any other way.

[2timothy316]

It is my understanding that time is not linear. There is only this moment in time and once it's gone, it's gone forever. We can move forward and backward in space but time has only one direction and that is forward. We can only move at the pace of the Arrow of time. We can't move faster than it so viewing the future of a person that doesn't exist now is not possible. We can guess as humans what another human is going to do, but Jehovah knows the person's heart, DNA, everything to know what their future holds. But if a person doesn't exist there is nothing to foreknow because time is not playing like some movie on a DVD. There is no way to fast forward to watch some future event because the future doesn't exist yet.

So when prophets are given visions of the future and those future events come true then what????

They come true because my God makes them come true. The future is at the will of God, not the other way around. Isaiah tells us that the things that are foretold are God's decision and what He wills will be accomplished.

"From the beginning I foretell the outcome, And from long ago the things that have not yet been done. I say, ‘My decision will stand, And I will do whatever I please.’" Isaiah 49:10

"So my word that goes out of my mouth will be. It will not return to me without results, But it will certainly accomplish whatever is my delight, And it will have sure success in what I send it to do." Isaiah 55:11

People's wicked acts cannot be known by the True God. Because if He did then according to scriptures above the person must do what comes from the decisions of God. If God knows a person's wicked deeds before they exist then it's God's will for it to happen. It's not the non-existing sinners decision because there is no sinner to decide.

[2timothy316]

My thoughts on time are that the future doesn't exist unless Jehovah God wills it.

And these are Your thoughts...

If what I said isn't true and God doesn't will the future into existence as He wishes, then who does? How can a wicked act be known without the brain of the person that is supposed to do it? Where did that wicked act come from if did not start in the mind of God, and it didn't start in the mind of a person? Who or what has more power than God that God looks to them for His information? Who is God consulting for information about the future?

[PinSeeker]

I do not believe that God creates one person to believe in him and be saved and create another person to have no hope of salvation being blocked from the Way of the LORD Jesus.. So i am Not a Calvinist.

No Calvinist believes that, either. Hyper-Calvinists do, but what they believe is a horrible distortion of John Calvin's understanding of Scripture. This is exactly what I just said; you want so much to proclaim that Calvinism is wrong, but what you're really proclaiming -- inadvertently but correctly -- is that Hyper-Calvinism is wrong... which every good Calvinist, including me, would wholeheartedly agree with.

Grace and peace to you Adstar.

[Adstar]

Yet you said and I quote you in post 31, "I am saying that God foreknew the evil that every individual would do before they where born, before they came into this universe existence.."

According to your own statement, the evil act of the person existed in your god's mind before it existed in the person's mind.

No.. That's your peculiar way of seeing things.. No sin exists in the LORD.. He foreknows what we will do.. Our sin but having foreknowledge of our sin does not make Him a sinner..

Yes it does because the sin existed before the sinner. There is no other 'way of seeing things'. If your god's mind was the only place the sin existed before the sinner then your god is the source of the sin. It can't be painted any other way.

Well on this point we shall agree to diagree.. No point in just repeating ourselves.