What did jesus say he about himself?

[muhammad rasullah]

Many debates have been held concerning the divinity of jesus and who in reality Jesus was. Now the first logical thing one should is determine what did jesus say about himself? Who did jesus say he was? Did he claim to be God or not? Or did he claim something different? What I truly want to ask those who say and believe that jesus is God is if he ever said such a thing?

Of course this should be easy to find about someone so prominent in history. If he is God then he had to have claimed it somewhere because that would seem to be God's very nature.

So here is the debate, what did jesus say about himself? Did he say he was God or did others raise him to that status? Or did he simply say something different? I assume Jesus would know about himself better than others.

[Word_Swordsman]

Like I said,
I'm not going back and forth with you about the entire bible.
If you can make your point in one subject, you have made your point.
So pick your subject and we will debate that subject only.
I don't want to jump around. Tell me what specifically contradicts and then we can debate it.
Keep in mind that I will be making spiritual points,
but I will back them with scripture.

What would you like to debate?
What is your contradiction of choice?

Okay well here is point number one.
Ahaziah's age how old was ahaziah the son of Jehoram when he began to reign in
jerusalem?
2nd Kings 8:26 Two and twenty years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name [was] Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2nd chronicles 22:2 Forty and two years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Athaliah the daughter of Omri.


Directly from your king james bible this is a contradiction! So how old was he? also how do we go directly to the head to head set up forum?

Ahaziah was 22 years old.
Are you ready to debate this and ONLY this in head to head?
There will be no point two. I told you to pick your strongest contradiction.
Either you will show that the bible is wrong or you won't.
You will not get a second shot in head to head with me.
Ready to start?
I will get it started after you respond.
Good Luck!

yup I am ready to start just tell me how he is twenty two years old when it says he is forty two in another part of the bible? we can start right now it doesnt matter because there is no way to clear up he fact that there are two different ages for ahaziah in the bible when he began to reign. So bring your proof for whatever your response is and use scripture only as you said before.

I will. I was not able to start the head to head thread either?
MODS, how do we get in? Thanks

There are several Hebrew words that deal with the concept of "age", bath, ben, and chay, the latter indicating how long alive. The word in that verse had to do with lineage, "ben". According to 2 Chr 21:20 Jehoram, Ahaziah's father, was forty years old when he died. The first clue we have is the "age", so the word there translated in English as "old" was not accurate. All you can claim is one of the improper English translations, not a Bible error. That's why you need to know something about Hebrew, using a lexicon, to learn how the Hebrews reckoned differently between paternal and maternal lineages. Ahaziah could not have been older than his father Jehoram when he took the throne a year at age 22, Jehoram being but 20 when begetting Ahazia. His right to the throne came from his connection to the house of Omri, through his grandmother mother Jezebel, which period was 42 years, a valid Hebrew reckoning of longevity as pertaining to genealogy. 2 Kings 8:26 shows the actual age alive on earth.

[muhammad rasullah]

Like I said,
I'm not going back and forth with you about the entire bible.
If you can make your point in one subject, you have made your point.
So pick your subject and we will debate that subject only.
I don't want to jump around. Tell me what specifically contradicts and then we can debate it.
Keep in mind that I will be making spiritual points,
but I will back them with scripture.

What would you like to debate?
What is your contradiction of choice?

Okay well here is point number one.
Ahaziah's age how old was ahaziah the son of Jehoram when he began to reign in
jerusalem?
2nd Kings 8:26 Two and twenty years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name [was] Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2nd chronicles 22:2 Forty and two years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Athaliah the daughter of Omri.


Directly from your king james bible this is a contradiction! So how old was he? also how do we go directly to the head to head set up forum?

Ahaziah was 22 years old.
Are you ready to debate this and ONLY this in head to head?
There will be no point two. I told you to pick your strongest contradiction.
Either you will show that the bible is wrong or you won't.
You will not get a second shot in head to head with me.
Ready to start?
I will get it started after you respond.
Good Luck!

yup I am ready to start just tell me how he is twenty two years old when it says he is forty two in another part of the bible? we can start right now it doesnt matter because there is no way to clear up he fact that there are two different ages for ahaziah in the bible when he began to reign. So bring your proof for whatever your response is and use scripture only as you said before.

I will. I was not able to start the head to head thread either?
MODS, how do we get in? Thanks

There are several Hebrew words that deal with the concept of "age", bath, ben, and chay, the latter indicating how long alive. The word in that verse had to do with lineage, "ben". According to 2 Chr 21:20 Jehoram, Ahaziah's father, was forty years old when he died. The first clue we have is the "age", so the word there translated in English as "old" was not accurate. All you can claim is one of the improper English translations, not a Bible error. That's why you need to know something about Hebrew, using a lexicon, to learn how the Hebrews reckoned differently between paternal and maternal lineages. Ahaziah could not have been older than his father Jehoram when he took the throne a year at age 22, Jehoram being but 20 when begetting Ahazia. His right to the throne came from his connection to the house of Omri, through his grandmother mother Jezebel, which period was 42 years, a valid Hebrew reckoning of longevity as pertaining to genealogy. 2 Kings 8:26 shows the actual age alive on earth.

What are you talking about this doesn't do anything at all. So what should the translation say then? you tell me? The fact is that Jehoram was 32 years old when he began to reign and 40 yrs old when he died and reigned for 8 years. The issue is not Jehoram's age the bible clearly states how old Jehoram is. The confusion is about Ahaziah's age we dont know how old he was. Was he 22 years old or 42 years old when he began to reign as king after his father?

If you want to get into the translations of the greek and hebrew and what it says. In 2Chronicles 22:2 The hebrew word is ben, pronounced ban when describing how old Ahaziah was when he began to reign. In 2 kings 8:26 the same ben is used describing the age of Ahaziah. And also in 2 Chronicles 21:20 the same ben is used for his father Jehoram, and in 2Chronicles 21:5 the same ben is used for Jehoram's age as well this is not talking about lineage or how long he lived or anything this specifically refers to how old the both of Ahaziah and jehoram was.

Also the same ben used in these verses is the same ben used in other verses pertaining to the age of people in the bible. Gen 5:32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

www.Blueletterbible.org
Use this website to find the translations of what the greek says.
If you want I can post it for you.

[Bennettresearch]

Like I said,
I'm not going back and forth with you about the entire bible.
If you can make your point in one subject, you have made your point.
So pick your subject and we will debate that subject only.
I don't want to jump around. Tell me what specifically contradicts and then we can debate it.
Keep in mind that I will be making spiritual points,
but I will back them with scripture.

What would you like to debate?
What is your contradiction of choice?

Okay well here is point number one.
Ahaziah's age how old was ahaziah the son of Jehoram when he began to reign in jerusalem?
2nd Kings 8:26 Two and twenty years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name [was] Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

2nd chronicles 22:2 Forty and two years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Athaliah the daughter of Omri.


Directly from your king james bible this is a contradiction! So how old was he? also how do we go directly to the head to head set up forum?

Hi,

I don't know why I got an email about this argument but I am not involved in it. It has gone far astray from the original question. I do have a question for you Muhammad;

Why don't you cut to the chase? What relevance does a discrepancy in the OT have with your main theme in this thread? Most scholars agree that the NT has quotes of Jesus in it that he probably didn't make. If you want to waste time debating this go ahead but I find no coherency in your thread to get into it.

Craig

It really has very little to do with the original topic other than the fact that if the bible is proven contradictory then it would be hard to believe other things which are said in it. Thus making it not he word of God. you see everytime a thread is started about christian theology it always goes of topic because they try to divert attention to other things when no answer can be given or only an explanation is given that is not scriptural. but I am still addressing the original topic I started with because the fact is that jesus never said he was God but always referred to himself when talking about god as his servent and as being sent by god. Believing that jesus is God is only a concoction of scripture trying to make the bible fit to what they already believe instead if what it says.

OK,

I have heard the Ahaziah argument before and I don't consider it to be worth persuing. As to statements in the NT, it has come to be understood that the synoptic gospels are propaganda pieces and words could have been put in Jesus' mouth to support a political doctrine written by Judaizers. Happy now? I support you in questioning the elevation of Jesus to God. In my work on Revelation it has become clear that this kind of thinking was incorrect as this prophecy gives a dissenting opinion. I won't go any farther as I am going to post a thread on the subject where I can state my case.

Craig

[daedalus 2.0]

BTW, why didn't anyone vote that it was Jesus who said the quote? Was it just because of the misspelling?

[officer2002]

The Testimony of John 8:58 "...Before Abraham was, I am."

The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:13-14 "13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him(the brother of Jared), and said: Because you thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. Iam the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

[Goat]

The Testimony of John 8:58 "...Before Abraham was, I am."

The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:13-14 "13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him(the brother of Jared), and said: Because you thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. Iam the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

Of course, if you are looking at Jesus being 'logos' and 'logos' being the gnostic logos, it is merely saying that the wisdom of God existed before Abraham.

[muhammad rasullah]

The Testimony of John 8:58 "...Before Abraham was, I am."

The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:13-14 "13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him(the brother of Jared), and said: Because you thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. Iam the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

Okay now we have to be clear on which bible we are using because obviously this isn't from the king james version of the bible. I dont know what bible or version that is from. Maybe you could tell me. In any case The words jesus is supposed to have been using means what? I am what? What is Jesus saying he is? It's like an incomplete sentence?

Read it all in context if you will. In verse john 8:54 he says Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Maybe its just me but isnt the I am statement supposed to be referring to Jesus himself as being God. This totally contradicts this idea because he clearly says It is my father that honoureth me. Of course you'd probably say the I and the father are one statement but this clearly distinguishes the difference between the two. If Jesus is the father then it doesn't make sense that he honours himself. He said my honor is nothing but my father (God) Honors me. And even if you didnt get the idea on that statement he clearly says again. Of whom you say, that he is your God! If Jesus was God wouldn't he have said of whom you say I am your God.
He is not God! The evidence is very clear.

[officer2002]

The Testimony of John 8:58 "...Before Abraham was, I am."

The Book of Mormon, Ether 3:13-14 "13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him(the brother of Jared), and said: Because you thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.
14Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. Iam the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters."

Okay now we have to be clear on which bible we are using because obviously this isn't from the king james version of the bible. I dont know what bible or version that is from. Maybe you could tell me. In any case The words jesus is supposed to have been using means what? I am what? What is Jesus saying he is? It's like an incomplete sentence?

Read it all in context if you will. In verse john 8:54 he says Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Maybe its just me but isnt the I am statement supposed to be referring to Jesus himself as being God. This totally contradicts this idea because he clearly says It is my father that honoureth me. Of course you'd probably say the I and the father are one statement but this clearly distinguishes the difference between the two. If Jesus is the father then it doesn't make sense that he honours himself. He said my honor is nothing but my father (God) Honors me. And even if you didnt get the idea on that statement he clearly says again. Of whom you say, that he is your God! If Jesus was God wouldn't he have said of whom you say I am your God.
He is not God! The evidence is very clear.

I am not a Bible worshiper or believer in the Nicean Creed. The Nicean Creed was written at the beginning of the Great Apostacy by people with no calling or inspiration from God. The Great Apostacy was when there was no true church on the Earth. It began approximately 100 or 200 AD and ended in 1820.
To understand John 8:58 look at Exodus 3:14. I AM is a name of Jehovah(which is why in John 8 the Jews were ready to stone Jesus). Jesus clearly identified Himself as Jehovah. Is he GOD? No! Elohim is GOD! Jesus did most(maybe all) of the Old Testament "leg work" for Our Father and His Father. As Jehovah he is a God but his Father in Heaven is greater than Him.
The background to that Ether quote is that the person Jesus is speaking to was alive at the Tower of Babel(well over a thousand years before Jesus was born) and was traveling to the Americas. He prayed to the Lord and before his interaction with the Lord was through saw The Lord.
I am sorry that my first posting was so lacking in explanation and rushed.

[Grand Pbuh]

Maybe its just me but isnt the I am statement supposed to be referring to Jesus himself as being God.

Right, it refers to him being as Melchizedek, not God:

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

So John 8:58 is not a statement of deity, but it's about his stature as a man holding the promise of even Abraham, since no one not even Abraham can get to God without Jesus as mediator and High Priest.

JESUS NATURAL OLIVE HEIR TO PROMISES OF
ABRAHAM/ISAAC/JACOB/DAVID/MELCHIZEDEK
--------------
GOD
JEWISH JESUS MELCHIZEDEK
JEWISH ISAAC NATURAL OLIVE
--------------
GOD
JESUS GENTILE MELCHIZEDEK
GENTILE ISHMAEL WILD OLIVE

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree...

[Lorens]

Many debates have been held concerning the divinity of jesus and who in reality Jesus was. Now the first logical thing one should is determine what did jesus say about himself? Who did jesus say he was? Did he claim to be God or not? Or did he claim something different? What I truly want to ask those who say and believe that jesus is God is if he ever said such a thing?

Of course this should be easy to find about someone so prominent in history. If he is God then he had to have claimed it somewhere because that would seem to be God's very nature.

So here is the debate, what did jesus say about himself? Did he say he was God or did others raise him to that status? Or did he simply say something different? I assume Jesus would know about himself better than others.

Dear friend,

there are of course a many obscurities in regard to our Lord Jesus Christ, his true nature, i.e. about God's Human manifestation, but most of them are due to literal or natural approach to the Word of God... in another words, natural or sensual people cannot but imagine everything in the natural way, consequently, when they read the Word of God and they read about 'Father', they imagine ONE PERSON of the FATHER.... than, when they read about the SON, they imagine another PERSON OF THE SON...

Here is what Jesus Christ Himself explains about this mistery through one of His greatest prophets, namely, Jakob Lorber.

Only with this basic knowledge in your 'hand' you can read again what is written in the Word of God, and than you will understand in all truth what our Lord and Heavenly Father said about Himself being God in Human form (Colossians 2:9):

THE TRINITY IN GOD AND MAN

NOW a Pharisee came to Me and said: “Lord and Master, in Your discussion You have said to us that Your disciples who will spread Your true teaching of life and by the laying on of hands will baptize those who have actually accepted Your teaching. That means to strengthen them in the name of the Father, who is the Love, in the name of the Word, that is the Son or the wisdom of the Father, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, that is the all-capable will of the Father and the Son.
[2] I think however that by that, many different points of view can easily exist which can be prevented when all those who have become believers would be baptized by Your disciples only in Your name or only in the name of the Father, because in future times those three – although the highest and holiest – denominations will probably bring people who do not have such a good understanding to believe in three separate gods, as three divine personalities. So also, the old Egyptians have in the course of time made of the ancient pure belief in only one true God a great number of gods out of the many qualities of Jehovah. After that, the blind fantasy of the people has changed it in all kinds of individually existing and specific active divine beings. They constructed temples and after that they also honored them in a special way. But at the same time they sunk away so deeply in such an unprecedented materialism that one often attributed the most common human weaknesses and perverted passions to the imagined divine personalities.
[3] This could also be the case in course of time, maybe after a few centuries when even more foolish and blinder people would start to imagine three gods, only on the basis of the denominations for the supreme conceptions that were heard during baptism. Then it would certainly not take long before one will greatly worship those three imagined gods in temples that will be specifically build for them. However, if this will happen, it will not take long before the people will also start to worship Your disciples – who they came to know by name – and also their successors in the same manner, and they will pray to them in the temples that will be build for them. According to my opinion this could be prevented in the easiest and permanent way when one should only make God known under one name to the people. What do You say about that?�
[4] I said: “You have said that very well and correctly, but still I cannot omit to urge you to do it anyway because with those three denominations the being of God as a whole is explained and is clearly brought to the attention of the people.
[5] It is true that by that in a certain way for someone who has a less good understanding a kind of threefold divine personality will come forth. But in order to reflect in all aspects the most inner truth, one cannot express it differently than how it is.
[6] Look, man has been created totally in God’s image, and whoever wants to know himself completely must realize that as one and the same human being he actually also consists of 3 personalities. You firstly have a body, provided of all the necessary sense organs and other parts of the body, from very big to hardly unimaginably small, which are necessary for a free and independent life. This body has, for the benefit of the development of the spiritual soul its own very natural life within that is different in every respect from the spiritual life of the soul. The body lives on material food of which the blood and the other nutritious juices are formed for the different parts of the body.
[7] The heart has a special living mechanism of its own within by which it continuously has to expand and then contract again. By that, the blood that makes the body alive together with the other juices that are made from it, will be pumped to all parts of the body. And by its contracting movement the heart will assimilate the blood again to saturate it with new nutritious foods and then pump it out again in order to feed the most various parts of the body. In these numerous and most divergent parts of the body an equal number of different nature spirits are living within, which are extracting from the blood those substances that serve the purpose and which are necessary for the nutrition and the maintenance of that part of the body that is controlled by such a spirit. Then they are assimilated into the parts of the body that are controlled by them, that means by the very spirits. In this way they are making the body more powerful and stronger, and without this continuous activity of the heart, man – as far as his body is concerned – would not be able to stay alive for 1 hour.
[8] Look, with this activity of life, the soul has nothing to do with it, because this activity has no connection with the free will of the soul, no more than with the very activity of the lungs, the liver, the spleen, the stomach, the intestines, the kidneys, and so much more countless parts of his body. The soul does not know these at all and he also cannot care for it. Nevertheless, the body is as a complete separate personality one and the same human being, and does and acts as if the two were totally the same personality. But then, who of you can say that the body and the soul are one and the same thing?
[9] If we consider now only the soul, then we will see that also he is in himself entirely a complete human being who has substantially spiritually also in himself and for the benefit of himself precisely the same parts as the body, and in a higher, spiritual respect he is using them just like the body is using his material parts.
[10] Now although the body on the one hand and the soul an the other hand represent two totally different human beings or persons, of who each has his own individual activity, they finally cannot even understand the how and why of those activities, and they are in the light of the actual purpose of life nevertheless only one human being. Consequently, nobody can claim neither of himself nor of anybody else that he is not an individual but a twofold human being, because the body must serve the soul, and this one, with his reason and will, must serve the body. And consequently, the soul is equally responsible for the acts for which he has made use of the body, as well as for his very own acts that exist of all kinds of thoughts, wishes, desires and lusts.
[11] When we however consider more in detail the life of the soul as such, we soon will discover that also he is a substantial bodily being, who in himself stands not much higher than at best for instance the soul of an ape. Although he possesses an instinctive thinking-faculty of a somewhat higher level than a simple animal, an intellect and a higher free opinion about certain things and their interrelation would be out of the question.
[12] This higher potential in the soul that is in fact the highest and equal to God, comes from a pure essential, spiritual, third man who lives in the soul. Through him, he can distinguish that which is true from the false and that which is good from the evil, and is able to think freely in all imaginable directions and is able to will in complete freedom. As he – supported by the spirit – will direct himself with his free will towards that which is purely true and good, he slowly in the same proportion will make himself completely equal with the spirit who lives in him. Thus: strong, powerful and wise, and is then identical with him, as being reborn in the spirit.
[13] When this is the case, the soul is as good as one being with his spirit, just as the more noble parts of a perfect soul – which in fact exist of the very different nature spirits in the body – will completely change into the spiritual substantial body, which you can call the flesh of the soul, and finally will also change into the essential body of the spirit under which the true resurrection of the flesh has to be understood on the youngest, most true day of the life of the soul, that begins when a man is completely reborn in the spirit, be it already here in this life or – what will cost some more trouble and time – in the beyond.
[14] Even though a completely reborn man in the spirit is only one perfect human being, his being exists nevertheless in himself eternally out of a well distinguishable trinity.
[15] How this is possible, I will explain very clearly to you. So listen carefully.

73. THE ACTIVITIES OF THE 3 BODIES OF MAN
I

F you just are a little observant, you will notice that with every thing and every object there is a distinguishable trinity. What will strike the eye first is of course the outer form, for without this no thing and no object could be imagined and could also not have any existence. And when the first exists, the second one is of course the content of the existent things and objects, for without this, they also could not exist and they also could not have any form or outer shape. Now what is the third, which is as necessary for the existence of a thing or object as the first and the second one? Look, that is an inner power in every thing or object that keeps the content of the thing or object thoroughly together and which forms their actual being. And since this power consists of the content and consequently also of the outer form of the things and objects, it is also the original being of all existence, no matter of what kind its nature may be. And without this power, the existence of a being or thing or object would be quite as unimaginable as without content and without an outer form.
[2] You can see now that the mentioned 3 parts are as such easy to be distinguished, since the outer form is not its content and the content is not its inherent power. And still, the 3 mentioned parts are completely one, because if there would be no power, there would be no content and certainly also no form.
[3] Now let us go back to our soul. The soul must, because of a sure and certain existence, have an outer form, namely that of a human being. Consequently, the outer form is that which we call the body or also the flesh, be it still material or spiritualized substantial, no matter how.
[4] Now when the soul – as far as his form is concerned – consists of a human being, he also will have together with the form his corresponding content. This content, or the inner body of the soul, is his very own being, therefore, the soul.
[5] And if all this is present, then there will be also the power that consists of the whole soul. And this is the spirit which finally is everything in everything, since without this spirit it would be impossible to have a solid substance, and without this also no body and consequently also no outer form.
[6] Although the 3 distinguishable personalities are as a whole only one being, they still have to be mentioned and distinguished each one of them separately.
[7] In the spirit, or the eternal essence, lives love, as the all-accomplishing power, the highest intelligence and living firm will. All this together brings about the substance of the soul and gives him his form or being of the body.
[8] Thus, once the soul or the human being is present – according to the will and the intelligence of the spirit – the spirit withdraws itself deep into the center and gives the now existing soul according to its deepest inner will and intelligence a free will that is as it were separated from it, and a free, as it were independent intelligence that the soul can, partly by his outer sense-organs and partly by an inner capability of perception acquire to himself and perfect it as if it would be completely the very own work of this completely free intelligence.
[9] As a result of this condition that is formed by necessity in which he feels as it were separated from his spirit, the soul is capable to receive an outer as well as an inner revelation. If he receives it, accepts and acts according to it, he will also by that become one with his spirit and therefore will more and more come to the unlimited freedom of the spirit, not only with regard to the intelligence and the freedom of will according to this enlightened intelligence, but also in the power and the might to accomplish everything whatever he recognizes and wills.
[10] Again, from this you can see that the soul – as the thought of the spirit that has changed into living substance, which is actually the spirit itself – can still in a certain way be considered as something that came forth as second from the spirit, without being something else, except the spirit itself.
[11] The fact that finally the soul becomes visible as an individual, clothed with an outer body that in a certain way appears as a third personality, is shown to you by daily experience. The body is for the soul an outer revelation of his deep inner spirit and has the purpose of turning the intelligence and the free will of the soul inside out, limit it, and only from then on search and find the inner limitlessness of the intelligence, of the will and its true power, and by that, as an infinite glorified and completely independent individual to become one with the inner spirit, which is the only thing that really exists in the human being.
[12] Since now, by this explanation of Mine you can hopefully clearly see how a man as such – as well as any other thing from a lower level – consists of a certain distinguishable ‘three’, we will pass over as a conclusion of this supremely important explanation to the triune Being of God Himself, so that you will be able to clearly and plainly see why I, because of the higher and inner living truth had to advise you emphatically to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit – that means: to strengthen – the people who believe in Me and who have in fact accepted My teaching.
[13] Thus, listen again carefully to what you will hear from My mouth in order to make the whole entirely and truthfully complete.
[14] Look, as all of you very well know that the book of the prophets says and explains that I, Jesus, Christ – also called Son of Man, although also defined and named by different names, namely as Father, Son and Holy Spirit – am the true God. And still, God is only one individual majesty in the highest perfect form of a man.
[15] As you well know now, the soul, His outer body and His deep inner Spirit are united in such a way that they are only one Being, or finally consist of one individual substance. But still, they form with respect to each other a well distinguishable ‘3’. So are also the Father, the Son and the Spirit united, as is taught by the Scriptures of the old fathers and prophets that I have just named.
[16] Once David expressed the wish that his soul, his body and his spirit be found blameless in the eyes of God. When the words of the old, wise king sound like this, could one not ask: What? Does man consist of 3 persons or 3 men? If this is already not possible with man, by whom the splitting of the three for the sake of his development and true perfection of life is clearly perceptible, how could God, who is from eternity within Himself in the greatest perfection only One, be split into three different persons or even three Gods?

74. THE BEING OF GOD
L

ISTEN, if it is sure that God as Creator of all beings – yet different from all other beings who were created by Him – was, is and will be eternal, is it then for Him an immovable necessity to remain in that particular original center? If it is already given to man to move freely with his body in all directions and even more so with his spirit, how could God in His limitless freedom restrict Himself in that wherein He gave even His created beings full freedom? I say to you: the divine infinity has the power in everything to also move endlessly free. He therefore will also have the right to change His glory into the flesh in order to be visibly and understandably present before His created human beings as an eternal entirely perfect Man.
[2] But the endless glory of God does not have the power – and can impossibly have it – to create Gods outside of Himself who are completely equal to Him. For if He would be able to do that, He would be able to create besides the one endless universe also other equally endless universes, of which any somewhat clearly thinking person can already see from a distance that this is the purest nonsense. For if the first universe is endless in all imaginable directions, then where must the second equally endless universe begin?
[3] A second perfect God with the fullest endless glory is therefore quite as unimaginable as a second endless universe. And so you can clearly see that I who am now just like you walking as a Son of Man in the flesh, am not a second but only the one and the same God who I was since eternity before all created beings and also will remain in all eternity. Therefore, I cannot do anything that is contrary to My eternal glory, but everything for it.
[4] If I created outside of Me two more Gods, like for instance the Son and the Holy Spirit, so that the two would be individually different from Me, then they inevitably could claim all My unlimited power, without which no God could be imagined, no more than one can imagine a second or even third endless universe that would be divided in a certain way, limiting each other. However, if this would be thinkable, then what about God’s sovereignty of which there can only be one?
[5] There can however exist only one such endless divine sovereign authority. For if there were three, then God’s endless one Kingdom would be split, and the existence of it would be quite as unimaginable and impossible as the existence of three endless universes next to each other.
[6] The one Kingdom of the one God can exist eternally because only He is the only King and Lord of it, as it is written in the books of the prophets, who have prophesized out of the mouth of God: ‘God will give His glory to no one else’ (Isaiah 42:8). For only I, Christ, am the only God. Human beings, angels, sovereignties and powers, yes, all things in Heaven and on all globes have always bowed before Me and will throughout eternity only bow before Me and never for anybody else, just like the cosmic spaces of creation that seem endless in your eyes are devoured by the one endless space of creation, and compared to that, they appear like a total nothing.
[7] If by the names Father, Son and Holy Spirit, not one self-existing God – the one primordial Being – has to be understood, and instead of that a Son that is separated from the Father and likewise a different Holy Spirit would be accepted, then what kind of God would the Father be?
[8] When it is stated in the books of the prophets – which are not understood by the people because of their rude simple-mindedness caused by themselves – that the Father clothes the Son with all power and glory in Heaven and on all globes and worlds, and has given Him the Holy Spirit as cooperator to sanctify and to watch over the new teaching from the Heavens, which is now given to you and over which only the Son, who I am, has the leadership, just like over all other things, then I ask you: what kind of God do you think the Father is? Can you still see a God in Him?
[9] And if in your material-human blindness you still can imagine another one, then you unquestionably would imagine Him to be useless and inactive, since you clearly have to perceive that under these conditions He cannot accomplish anything anymore and can also not govern over anything anymore. You surely will have to realize in a dark human manner that God the Father has perhaps delegated His government to His Son forever because of His high age – just like the old king Pharaoh in Egypt who delegated the government to Joseph – and also because of His weakness and tiredness so that He can enjoy His rest being totally inactive.
[10] Can you really imagine that the Father has become old, and that He wants to lay down His work because He now has besides Himself a Son who is in all aspects equally almighty as He is, and further still has an equally powerful almighty Holy Spirit who He created out of Himself and His Son, and that He will delegate now the whole government to both of them, while He Himself will abdicate.
[11] Oh how extremely heathenish foolish, silly and blind would human reason be to fall into such a madness.
[12] If there exist a Son and a Holy Spirit who are different from the Father and would exist besides Himself, as this is the case with angels and human beings, then they can be nothing else except His created beings, because they did not receive their being – no matter how perfect it may be – of themselves as a result of their very own and eternal perfect power, but only from the one Creator.
[13] However, how can there be a complete, divine relationship or a real unity between a spirit without body and form and a spirit with body and form? Can it be said that the Son – who is a bodily Person and, as you can see, has a body – is in the Father if the Father has no body, no shape and no form? Or can the infinite Father, without having a body, shape and form be in the Son?
[14] Moreover: if the Holy Spirit is a third person as such, coming from the Father and the Son, then how can that person have the same qualities as those two are having and who are equally eternal? Or can that which receives its existence from another person, be equal to that which has its existence out of himself? Can eternity ever be equal to the all-fleeing time, or the limited area to infinity?
[15] Even if one can accept that all the times of times are contained in eternity and are moving and changing, then it is however impossible to think and assert that time, no matter how long it lasts, can comprise eternity. Just like one can also think and assert that the endless primordial space surely can contain all spaces – which, no matter how big they may be, are finally still limited – but these last ones can impossible contain the primordial space.
[16] Thus, if the Holy Spirit would really just like any other created being go out of the Father and the Son as a being as such, then he obviously would be a god of time and not of eternity. However, such a god could then, just like all that which is timely, in course of time cease to exist. But if this is the case, then who would be able to give an eternal life to all human beings and angels and maintain it?
[17] In order that this matter of the highest importance would still be more clear and plain to you, we will continue this subject, and so you listen to Me.

75. THE LORD AS SON
I

F furthermore, the Son was present since eternity, then how could He be procreated? And when the Holy Spirit was also there since eternity, how could He then come forth from the Father and the Son and have His beginning in Them. If according to your mind and reason the three divine persons – contested by you, of whom the future people could easily make three Gods – are all three eternal, that means without a beginning, then one of them could not have given the beginning of his existence to the others.
[2] I am, as I am now with you as a Man in the flesh, the Son, and I was never procreated by anyone else except by Myself, and consequently I am My highest own Father since eternity. Where else could the Father be except in the Son, and where else could the Son be except in the Father? Thus only one God and Father in one person.
[3] This body of Mine is therefore the glorified shape of the Father for the benefit of the people and angels, so that I could be an understandable and visible God for them. Now you can see Me, listen to Me and speak to Me, and by that still stay alive. Because before, it was so that no one could see God and live. I am now God in every respect. In Me is the Father. And the power that goes out of Me according to My love, wisdom and almighty will and that fills up the eternal endless space throughout and which is also active everywhere, is the Holy Spirit.
[4] As you can see Me now as God-Man with you, I am with My whole original central Being certainly completely and undivided in your midst, here in this dining-hall on the Mount of Olives. And thus, as highest true God and Man at the same time I am nowhere else, not on this Earth and even less on another. But still, by the power, which is the Holy Spirit, that goes out of Me, I fill all the Heavens and the earthly material and endless space with My activity. I can see everything therein, from the greatest to the smallest, I understand everything, know everything, decide on everything, and create, guide and rule over everything.
[5] Now, when you clearly know this out of My mouth, you also will understand for which reason you shall strengthen by laying your hands upon them, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, those people who believe in Me and who are also acting according to My teaching, after it has been made known to them.
[6] If you understand the reason now, you also will perceive that the people who are truly and correctly taught by you, will not easily come to the idea of accepting three gods as such, because you have named the three qualities. But I also urge you to give the people a real and truthful light, because where this will be lacking, the people will easily and quickly wither and change to all kinds of false doctrines, and then it will be difficult to bring them on the way of the full truth.
[7] The fact that, despite all your faithfulness there still will be false teachers and prophets who will mislead a lot of people, you surely will not be able to avoid, and you will not be blamed for that, as little as a farmer who sows pure wheat on his land between which his enemy has scattered weeds during the night, will be accused of sin when on his land between the wheat the weeds grow rampantly and weaken the good grain.
[8] It is of course the desire of My love that all the people of this Earth will walk on the light way of the truth and therefore will go towards eternal life. But because I – for the reasons which I already have made known to you – have to withdraw My almightiness, every human being is completely free and can finally believe and do what he himself wants.
[9] When you spread My teaching, you better influence the reason and by that the mind of the people. For once the reason and the mind are penetrated, faith becomes alive and successfully active by the good will. Without the right enlightenment of the reason and the mind, faith will only be present after a dumb and blind acceptance of that which man has heard from one or the other authority. Such a faith is however actually no faith at all. It does not awaken the mind to a voluntary activity that makes the heart happy, and is therefore dead since it is without the free
joy-giving works.
[10] Works that were accomplished by man because of an external imposed ‘must’ do not have any value for the soul, since they do not awaken the soul but are oppressing it because they were not voluntarily brought with joy out of an inner conviction, but only out of fright for the punishment that is threatened while one feels secretly offence, fury and rage.
[11] When I am already saying to you that you should be equally perfect in understanding and pure love as the Father in Heaven, then your disciples should be too. Therefore, I also say to you the following: examine everything beforehand and keep that which is good and true.
[12] What I am advising you now to observe yourselves you also should advice to your future disciples. I very well could desire now from you to believe Me what I will say and advise to you without further explanations, because the signs which I have done before your eyes have surely given Me the authority which compels you to believe Me. But such a compelled faith is by far still no inner light of the soul and does not awaken him for a joyful deed.
[13] The fact that this is indeed so, are proving your continuous questions, and by that you recognize openly that faith, which is only based on authority is giving the soul much too little light. And this lack in you is only done away by My explanations. As you now still want clear explanations, which are also salutary, so also your disciples will want this from you, and you should not be thrifty with it if you want to control the appearance of the false prophets as much as possible.
[14] You also will perform signs, and the false ones will do the same with the help of all kind of deceit, and therefore the signs that are performed by you will always be a meager proof for the realness of the teaching that is announced by you to the people. But whatever you will be impressing in the reason and mind of the people by means of lightening words will remain an eternal, indelible, living proof of the truth of the teaching out of My Heavens. Such a clearly understood truth will only then make you and your disciples completely free. And now, I again have revealed a lot and given you much light, and therefore I am asking you again if you have well understood this.�
[15] All of them said: “Yes, Lord and Master, we now understood it very well, because now You have spoken again very freely and openly.�
[16] Then I said: “We still have the time. If anybody still wants to know something, let him ask.�

received from Jesus Christ by His servant the prophet Jakob Lorber, and written down in his book 'The Great Gospel of John'

Lorens