What did jesus say he about himself?

[muhammad rasullah]

Many debates have been held concerning the divinity of jesus and who in reality Jesus was. Now the first logical thing one should is determine what did jesus say about himself? Who did jesus say he was? Did he claim to be God or not? Or did he claim something different? What I truly want to ask those who say and believe that jesus is God is if he ever said such a thing?

Of course this should be easy to find about someone so prominent in history. If he is God then he had to have claimed it somewhere because that would seem to be God's very nature.

So here is the debate, what did jesus say about himself? Did he say he was God or did others raise him to that status? Or did he simply say something different? I assume Jesus would know about himself better than others.

[Ilias Ahmad]

Analyze the Islamic claims about Jesus, and see if they have any confirmation in the "New Testament"

1. Jesus was sent to confirm the Law that was revealed before him (Quran, chapter 5, verse 46)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)

2. Jesus was a prophet according to Islam

And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown and in his own house is a prophet without honor." (Matthew 13:57)

When Jesus was being persecuted in his hometown of Nazareth, so he said a prophet is without honor in his own hometown. This confirms Jesus considered himself a prophet, and also laid down an important criteria which was fulfilled by the last of the prophets, Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salam) who was also rejected from his hometown of Makka.

3. Jesus was only sent for the tribes of Israel (Quran, chapter 61, verse 6)

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

This was one of the deviations of Paul, that he expanded Jesus's gospel to include the gentiles, but Jesus himself told his disciples to preach only to the lost sheep of israel, to avoid the samaritans and other gentiles.

4. Jesus never claimed to be divine (Quran, chapter 5, verse 116)

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone." (Luke 18:19)

[McCulloch]

Answer Jesus Luke 19:27
Read in context:

While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.
So He said, "A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return. And he called ten of his slaves, and gave them ten minas and said to them, 'Do business with this until I come back.'
"But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We do not want this man to reign over us.'
"When he returned, after receiving the kingdom, he ordered that these slaves, to whom he had given the money, be called to him so that he might know what business they had done.
"The first appeared, saying, 'Master, your mina has made ten minas more.'
"And he said to him, 'Well done, good slave, because you have been faithful in a very little thing, you are to be in authority over ten cities.'
"The second came, saying, 'Your mina, master, has made five minas.'
"And he said to him also, 'And you are to be over five cities.'
"Another came, saying, 'Master, here is your mina, which I kept put away in a handkerchief; for I was afraid of you, because you are an exacting man; you take up what you did not lay down and reap what you did not sow.'
"He said to him, 'By your own words I will judge you, you worthless slave. Did you know that I am an exacting man, taking up what I did not lay down and reaping what I did not sow? 'Then why did you not put my money in the bank, and having come, I would have collected it with interest?'
"Then he said to the bystanders, 'Take the mina away from him and give it to the one who has the ten minas.'
"And they said to him, 'Master, he has ten minas already.'
"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."

So the answer is the nobleman in the parable told by Jesus said this.

[Ilias Ahmad]

So the answer is the nobleman in the parable told by Jesus said this.

There is no question that Luke 19:27 is in the context of a parable. But the thing pacifist Christians forget is what is the definition of a parable? According to Webster's Dictionary: "A figurative sentence or discourse, in which the principal subject is described by another subject resembling it in its properties and circumstances. The real subject is thus kept out of view, and we are left to collect the intentions of the writer or speaker by the resemblance of the secondary to the primary subject."

So when Jesus is narrating his parable, he is telling a story which reflects his own circumstances. For example, the king in the parable, the one who commands that those who reject him to be killed, is the parable reflection of Jesus himself.

[McCulloch]

So the answer is the nobleman in the parable told by Jesus said this.

So when Jesus is narrating his parable, he is telling a story which reflects his own circumstances. For example, the king in the parable, the one who commands that those who reject him to be killed, is the parable reflection of Jesus himself.

I agree that the parables, if authentic say much about the character of the one telling them. Is the nobleman in the parable Jesus or the Father?

[muhammad rasullah]

So the answer is the nobleman in the parable told by Jesus said this.

So when Jesus is narrating his parable, he is telling a story which reflects his own circumstances. For example, the king in the parable, the one who commands that those who reject him to be killed, is the parable reflection of Jesus himself.

I agree that the parables, if authentic say much about the character of the one telling them. Is the nobleman in the parable Jesus or the Father?

The nobleman in the parable is jesus himself because the parable explains that you are given so many talents what did u do with it, and such and such were given so many talents what did you do with it. Now comes a supreme opportunity to establish the kingdom of God because they thought it was to immediately appear. Jesus was talking about himself.

[ken1burton]

Cute.

Jesus said that the words which He spoke, were not His, But the Father’s who sent Him. So take anything Jesus said, But don’t list Jesus as the one saying these things, But just God’s messenger saying them.

So asking Jesus in the Quran if He said He was God’s Son, and Jesus answers “No�, That does not mean God did not speak these words through Jesus. It means it was not Christ’s thoughts being spoken.

God blinded most of the Jewish Nation from seeing that Jesus is the Messiah. God also spoke through Jesus “No man cometh unto the Father. But by Me.� Which means the words God spoke through Jesus, Slew those who did not want Jesus as their King.

This is God doing all this. So the Jewish Nation is Spiritually dead by those words. Which is a Covenant. A Covenant which had to be made to fulfill the prophecies, and one God had to void.

Psalms 89:39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

The Priests came to Jesus while He was still alive on the Cross, Calling Jesus both Christ and King even though they had objected to those names with Pilate. This is also seen in the prophecies:

Psalms 78:34 When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.

That was fulfilled by what they spoke to Jesus, while He was on the Cross:

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Jesus as a messenger also told Prophecies which God had given Him to speak. As all the prophets are Messengers, Just called Prophets because of the type of message.

It is like Daniel in the Lion’s Den. The King was sorry He had signed the decree when He understood what the result was:

Daniel 6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day.
14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him.

Now consider this: When Jesus said that “No man cometh unto the Father’s but by Me.� and those words given to Jesus, What then is the Fate of Daniel?

Daniel kept the Law, and the Law justifies no man. So Daniel then is Spiritually Dead as well. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Dead in Christ like being in a Lion’s Den. A Sepulchre to be exact. God saved Daniel from the Lions (day seen as three pictures so it is Plural.) While we know thousands of believers were fed to the Lions, and were not saved.

God is able to save, He does not make a habit of it. However the Churches tell most of the Children of the story of Daniel, Not telling them of the many who were eaten, Creating the Illusion of God’s protection on believers.

Elijah is in the cave, He is asked “Elijah, What are you doing here?� And that with a still small voice. A Child who just broke a window speaks with a still small voice, And Elijah has the same problem Daniel has. When Jesus spoke those words, Elijah had to be sent from God, for He could not be in Heaven till He also came through Jesus.

God uses Similitudes, as the Quran shows it in Allah using similitudes.

The Sum of the matter is this: God saved mankind through Christ. All by Grace, Not of one’s self. No one can boast, all having fallen short. Jesus being exactly who God said He was. David’s Child raised to be declared the “Son of God.� Which results that in Christ, we are all joined to God.

2-Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Just because the Nation of Israel, or Christianity can not link David’s physical Child to being Jesus, Does not mean that Jesus is not David’s physical son. It just means that the Math is not right yet. And it is the Scriptures which have to add up.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2-Samuel 12:4 shows WHICH SON of David, God used.

Ken

[muhammad rasullah]

Cute.

Jesus said that the words which He spoke, were not His, But the Father’s who sent Him. So take anything Jesus said, But don’t list Jesus as the one saying these things, But just God’s messenger saying them.

So asking Jesus in the Quran if He said He was God’s Son, and Jesus answers “No�, That does not mean God did not speak these words through Jesus. It means it was not Christ’s thoughts being spoken.

God blinded most of the Jewish Nation from seeing that Jesus is the Messiah. God also spoke through Jesus “No man cometh unto the Father. But by Me.� Which means the words God spoke through Jesus, Slew those who did not want Jesus as their King.

This is God doing all this. So the Jewish Nation is Spiritually dead by those words. Which is a Covenant. A Covenant which had to be made to fulfill the prophecies, and one God had to void.

Psalms 89:39 Thou hast made void the covenant of thy servant: thou hast profaned his crown by casting it to the ground.

The Priests came to Jesus while He was still alive on the Cross, Calling Jesus both Christ and King even though they had objected to those names with Pilate. This is also seen in the prophecies:

Psalms 78:34 When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.
36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.

That was fulfilled by what they spoke to Jesus, while He was on the Cross:

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Jesus as a messenger also told Prophecies which God had given Him to speak. As all the prophets are Messengers, Just called Prophets because of the type of message.

It is like Daniel in the Lion’s Den. The King was sorry He had signed the decree when He understood what the result was:

Daniel 6:13 Then answered they and said before the king, That Daniel, which is of the children of the captivity of Judah, regardeth not thee, O king, nor the decree that thou hast signed, but maketh his petition three times a day.
14 Then the king, when he heard these words, was sore displeased with himself, and set his heart on Daniel to deliver him: and he laboured till the going down of the sun to deliver him.

Now consider this: When Jesus said that “No man cometh unto the Father’s but by Me.� and those words given to Jesus, What then is the Fate of Daniel?

Daniel kept the Law, and the Law justifies no man. So Daniel then is Spiritually Dead as well. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Dead in Christ like being in a Lion’s Den. A Sepulchre to be exact. God saved Daniel from the Lions (day seen as three pictures so it is Plural.) While we know thousands of believers were fed to the Lions, and were not saved.

God is able to save, He does not make a habit of it. However the Churches tell most of the Children of the story of Daniel, Not telling them of the many who were eaten, Creating the Illusion of God’s protection on believers.

Elijah is in the cave, He is asked “Elijah, What are you doing here?� And that with a still small voice. A Child who just broke a window speaks with a still small voice, And Elijah has the same problem Daniel has. When Jesus spoke those words, Elijah had to be sent from God, for He could not be in Heaven till He also came through Jesus.

God uses Similitudes, as the Quran shows it in Allah using similitudes.

The Sum of the matter is this: God saved mankind through Christ. All by Grace, Not of one’s self. No one can boast, all having fallen short. Jesus being exactly who God said He was. David’s Child raised to be declared the “Son of God.� Which results that in Christ, we are all joined to God.

2-Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

Just because the Nation of Israel, or Christianity can not link David’s physical Child to being Jesus, Does not mean that Jesus is not David’s physical son. It just means that the Math is not right yet. And it is the Scriptures which have to add up.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

2-Samuel 12:4 shows WHICH SON of David, God used.

Ken

Jesus said that the words which He spoke, were not His, But the Father’s who sent Him. So take anything Jesus said, But don’t list Jesus as the one saying these things, But just God’s messenger saying them.

So is that supposed to be everything that jesus said is not reaaly him but all God's words. I beg to differ, the teachings which jesus taught where not from him John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

So asking Jesus in the Quran if He said He was God’s Son, and Jesus answers “No�, That does not mean God did not speak these words through Jesus. It means it was not Christ’s thoughts being spoken.

So your telling me that jesus wouldn't even remember saying such a thing even if God made him speak it. So your saying that jesus is a liar he lies to God. If jesus didn't say it then God didn't speak it through him. Surely he would recall saying such a thing.

You have given me so many quotations but not from jesus pertaining to the topic of "what did jesus say about himself?"
I created this topic in this way purposely so that it wouldn'tbe diverted from with quoting other people than jesus himself. So hears is what jesus said about himself Jesus says John13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
so is jesus sent? If he is then from his statement he can not be greater than the one who sent him. John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Here this clearly establishes that 1) jesus can by himself do nothing meaning he relies on the father for everything 2)Jesus has his own will seperate from the father 3) The father has a will that jesus does 4) and finnally that Jesus is sent by God meaning that he is not greater than God. Now are they equals? No, jesus says himself the father is greater than I John 14;28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
More evidence that God is greater and jesus is not equal is written largein Jesus's staement when he says Mark 13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
The day which Jesus is talking about is the day of judgement he says the angels don't know and neither the son speaking of himself but only God knows. So he is not God he isn't greater than God nor his equal. Jesus was a prophet a messenger sent by God.

[nygreenguy]

Hi muhammad! Another this that supports your point is the devil.

The devil tempted jesus in the desert. If jesus was god, like many believe satat would have known this and would have known it would be frivolous. Even satan would know God can not be tempted.

Then we have the whole "This is my son, for who I am proud". It simply wouldnt make sense for god to be talking about himself. Really, the WHOLE trinity thing doesnt make and sense and ironically, the JW's website speaks volumes about this.

[ken1burton]

Muhammad Rasullah.

You beg to differ? You just quoted Jesus in John 7:16 saying exactly what I have said, That the Doctrine is not Christ’s but the Father who sent Jesus is the One whose Doctrine Jesus is speaking.

Jesus is referring to it as “My Doctrine� because they hear Jesus speaking it and the People think the Doctrine originated with Jesus. So the “My Doctrine� is not from Christ.

This is better seen through the Revised Standard Version, The subject is they are questioning how Jesus can have these words, When He never studied:

John 7:14 About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and taught.
7:15 The Jews marveled at it, saying, “How is it that his man has learning, when He has never studied?�
7:16 So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is no mine, But His who sent Me;
7:17 if any man’s will is to do His will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on My own authority.

This also shows a problem the Jewish People have, Which is also common for people today, Looking at the Messenger, When they need to look at the message. They saw Jesus should not have had that message, having never studied, or not having been taught it of men. So where then could the Doctrine have come from?

So instead of accepting God as the one who is using a messenger to tell them these things, They reject the message because the messenger were not taught of men, No known credentials.

Jesus is not answering if the words were spoken through Him, He is answering if He said it, or He was claiming when it was spoken, that He is the Son of God. Jesus is not claiming He declared witness that He is the Son of God. Nor is Jesus telling them that God did declare Jesus as His Son.

Psalms 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

The Body of Christ born the day of the Cross, with mankind in that Body, Declared by God to be the Son of God, or the Body is a Son unto the Father.

Notice how Jesus is not saying anything, when questioned:

Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Then all of a sudden, Jesus does answer. Or it is really Jesus who is giving the answer?

Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

God speaks THROUGH Jesus, TO JESUS. Jesus also listens to what is coming out of His own mouth. So it is the Holy Ghost who answered the High Priest, And as Mark 13:11 shows, It is not Jesus who answered, Jesus is just who the Holy Ghost spoke through.

So you can not say for certain what Jesus said about Himself, As both the Father, and the Holy Ghost speaks through Jesus, and Jesus does not claim the words as His own.

And Jesus is not being asked if He remembers speaking, But if it was Him speaking.

Please that note: I do not claim or believe that Jesus is God, The Trinity concept is not Scriptural. Jesus is David’s physical son raised or declared by God as His own. Had God not declared this, Jesus would have just lived as another of David’s children.

John 1:1 records the BEGINNING. But that is not where most people think, The Beginning is the Beginning of the New World, the day of the Cross, and the day of the Cross, Jesus by the words of God is made “AS GOD.�

Exactly how God is using this “AS GOD�, is a similitude which God uses, the fact that God gave Jesus the power to take up His life, or He could have risen immediately after death. A power only a God has, But a power granted to Jesus, so in that aspect, He is AS GOD.

The Fact He is given a chance to save people, Something God has the power to do, could be a aspect of AS GOD. Save Himself or the World. That He is being given Eternal life, as God has. So the day of the Cross Jesus AS GOD has Eternal Life, As God He has power to take up His life, AS GOD, does not mean IS GOD.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

Jesus is the son of David, Physically, And he was AS GOD in that Day, which is the day of the Cross when the prophecies, this included is fulfilled, Because Jesus will be dead part of the day, He is also being seen as the Angel of the Lord (when dead)

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Jesus Christ is the “Faithful witness�, He is what God is using, or what God began with to create “AS GOD� for this is not the Beginning of the Creation BY BY BY God, but OF OF OF God, So it is Jesus being created AS GOD the day of the Cross, and only for the day of the Cross so the Scriptures would be fulfilled.

God swore in His Holiness that He would raise up David’s child, He did just that. Christianity can not link Jesus to David, the Jewish Nation can not link Jesus to David, Both genealogies go to Joseph which is a dead end, Mary has no recorded genealogy, Mary does not have to be of the Tribe of David, the Child does.

David had just been given the promise of the Messiah in 2-Samuel 7:11/14, The next child born unto David seen in Scripture is conceived outside wedlock through Bathsheba.

The Child dies 7 days after birth, stricken by God. 1,000 years later in a manger in Bethlehem a Child is laid, All dead Children go to God, And the Child who died, was SENT FROM GOD. The First begotten (born) of the Dead, Which is a prophecy for the Christ.

The Stone which the Builders rejected, and the Child conceived outside wedlock was not a Child of David anyone considered. A Stone of Stumbling.

God sent David a parable about taking Bathsheba to prepare for the Wayfaring man who had come unto Him, the Promise of the Messiah is who had come unto David, and in stead of taking one of His wives, He took Uriah’s wife to prepare for Him.

2-Samuel 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.

Jesus is the WAYFARING MAN:

Jeremiah 14:8 O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?

It is all the Prophecies, or the things God spoke about what the Messiah would do, and Jesus doing them, which shows that Jesus is the one who God sent, Showing He is the Son of David then, That is the Link, God saying the Son of David would do these things, and Jesus seen as being the One, God is using.



Nygreenguy.

I also do not share the Christian concepts of who the Devil or Satan is. But consider this, based on what you wrote:

Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

God is claiming that Satan got Him to move against Job without a cause, You seem to be claiming that Satan would not even consider trying to get God to do anything different then His normal actions.

Satan is appearing here as a Person, Angel, a Being, Some form of another who does things on their own, and can converse with God. The Conversation is a similitude, it is God’s own words which moved Him. When God said “I try the hearts and reigns of men.� that means that cause or not, Job gets tested like everyone else.

Like “Satan desires to sift you as wheat.�, God’s Word says the same thing, and Peter is Jewish or of Israel.

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

The Person of the Devil, Satan, Lucifer, Etc is a lot of Scriptures. Scripture which will not support the Christian Concepts.

Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Exodus 4:11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Ken