The 144,000 in JW theology

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:02 pm

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:56 pm

Peace to you,

Eloi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:48 pm Not even Jesus chose himself as High Priest.

Heb. 5:4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”

What does that have to do with anything I wrote, Eloi? I did not claim that Christ chose Himself as High Priest. I did not even claim that Christians choose themselves to be kings and priests.

Christ is the One who calls AND CHOOSES.

Interestingly, those who believe that they can name themselves as part of the 144,000, that is, as king and priest, assume that not only him, but anyone from any other religion or beliefs who claims to be "Christian" can also assume that position. Isn't that an act of conceit and arrogance like that of Korah, Dathan, Abiram, and King Uzziah?

Who are you talking to who has done this?

Is a person supposed to deny that Christ called and chose them, just because others will object or criticize or judge them for it, perhaps even imply that they are conceited or arrogant?

Peace again to you.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:02 pm

ARE THE 24 ELDERS OF REVELATION 5 AND THE GREAT CROWD OF REVELATION 7 THE SAME?

tam wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 3:38 pm
[Revelation chapter 5]

“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation , and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God,

Compared with Revelation 7 (describing the Great Crowd),

After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;

A novice error many make is automatically including the same word or expression must refer to the same person(s) without examining the context. This is like concluding Madonna and Mother Theresa must be the same person because they both were described as wearing a habit.

The expression "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation" simply indicates both groups were chosen from an global pool. To see whether they are identical we need to look not only where they are from but where they end up.

While the great crowd of Revelation 7:9 cannot be numbered ; The elders of Revelation 5 can (24)

While the elders are sitting on thrones (Rev 4:4) the great crowd are standing before the throne

While the elders hold incence of prayers the great crowd hold branches with leaves

While both groups wear white the elders have crowns while the great crowd are not spoken off as having crowns

CONCLUSION There is clearly enough indication that the writer wants us to distinguish between the two groups despite their common origins.

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BORN AGAIN , THE 144, 000 and ... THE GREAT CROWD

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:05 pm

[Replying to tam in post #4]
Well, sometimes I am not answering you. This topic is "The 144000 in JW theology" so ...
I guess some readers understand the relationship between what I post and the thread.

For example, if Jesus himself as High Priest could not choose himself, how is it that anyone can believe that he can assume as priest, being that he is below Jesus himself?

Rev. 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Another interesting reasoning comes from the fact that those chosen by God to be joint heirs with Christ as his special brothers, are considered children of God in a special sense. It can be said that they are by adoption.

Rom. 8:28 We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.

1 Pet. 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time.

It is obvious that it is Jehovah, the Father, who chooses and adopts them. Can a child in an orphanage select the parent to adopt him?

And could those who cannot even identify who Jehovah is, take on the role of sons? Whose children (John 20:17)?

These are some interesting ideas to ponder, and help yourself understand a matter as serious as this.

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:30 pm

Peace to you,

Eloi wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:05 pm [Replying to tam in post #4]
Well, sometimes I am not answering you. This topic is "The 144000 in JW theology" so ...
I guess some readers understand the relationship between what I post and the thread.

For example, if Jesus himself as High Priest could not choose himself, how is it that anyone can believe that he can assume as priest, being that he is below Jesus himself?

I don't know how someone can believe that, if indeed they are listening to Christ, who said that He is the One who chooses.

Has someone here done this?

Rev. 5:9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Another interesting reasoning comes from the fact that those chosen by God to be joint heirs with Christ as his special brothers, are considered children of God in a special sense. It can be said that they are by adoption.

Rom. 8:28 We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.

It is obvious that it is Jehovah, the Father, who chooses and adopts them. Can a child in an orphanage select the parent to adopt him?

The Father adopts them yes.

Christ also calls His sheep by name, as He said. The Father draws people to the Son (“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day"). Christ also chooses, right?

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.

Christ anoints people He chooses with holy spirit (the baptism of holy spirit that Christ performs), right?

And he (John the baptist) began to proclaim: “After me will come One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the holy spirit.” Mark 1:8

See also John 20:22; and the giving of holy spirit at Pentecost, and again with Cornelius and his loved ones. That is the anointing of holy spirit, the baptism of holy spirit.

And could those who cannot even identify who Jehovah is, take on the role of sons? Sons of who (John 20:17)?

I don't see how that would be possible.

And one knows the Father by knowing His Son. Not because they are the same person of course, but because the Son is the Living Image of the Living God, the perfect representation of His Father. To know Christ is to know His Father also.

"If you really know me, you will know my Father also." John 14:7

That Son also said,

"Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:34 pm

Although Jesus directly chose some of his followers when he was on earth, it is not he who chooses the 144,000 to rule with him, but Jehovah, who adopts them as sons to become joint heirs with him in heaven:

Rom. 8:12 So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh; 13 for if you live according to the flesh, you are sure to die; but if you put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, you will live. 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit are indeed God’s sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together. (...) 28 We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified.

1 Pet. 1:3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you, 5 who are being safeguarded by God’s power through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last period of time.

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:51 pm

Peace again to you,

[Replying to Eloi in post #425]

Although Jesus directly chose some of his followers when he was on earth,

The Father gave them to Him.

I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine.

There's no need to disagree on who choose and who does not. Whatever belongs to Christ belongs to the Father, and vice versa (out of love); and the Son does whatever the Father desires (again out of love), and the Father has given the Son all authority in heaven and on earth (again out of love).

Peace again to you and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Eloi · Post by **Eloi** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:56 pm

Maybe you need to meditate on these expressions: children of God, joint heirs with Christ.
None of the 144000 is a child of Jesus, but his brother.
None of the 144000 is a heir of Jesus, but a joint heir with him.
Jesus and his brothers (the 144000) have the same God, and the same Father:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

I don't have to agree or disagree with you ... you constantly judge the Witnesses. We have to teach what we learn from Scripture, even if you disagree.

Heb. 2:10 For it was fitting for the one for whose sake all things are and through whom all things are, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the Chief Agent of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all [stem] from one, and for this cause he is not ashamed to call them “brothers,” 12 as he says: “I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of [the] congregation I will praise you with song.”

tam · Post by **tam** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:56 pm

Oh (peace to you all!), and the adoption as sons is via holy spirit (the breath, blood, seed of JAH). It is more than an adoption on paper, though certainly of love. There is an anointing of holy spirit - so that the sons share in the breath/blood/seed of JAH. That holy spirit (water of life) is poured out from Christ, given to Him without end from His Father.

Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:59 pm

I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.[/color] Rev 21:2 ( compare Rev 3:12b)

Revelation is highly symbolic, just as Christ's bride is neither a literal woman nor a literal city, the 144,000 do not literally come "down" onto the earth, rather this symbolises they direct their attention "down"* to the earth.

* heaven isnt literally "up" as it is actually another realm.

In what sense does she come "out of heaven"?

In the symbolic sense that the blessings she bestows on earths inhabitants are of divine origin.

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