The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[Eloi]

(...) The WTS commands something different (...)

That is a false accusation, and I guess it is because you are not reading what we really teach. We tell that if a person does not belong to the group that will be "kings and priests" with Jesus, they should not drink or eat of the emblems. Some of us think they are part, and so they drink and eat of them.
Have you noticed how wrong your accusation is?

Actually, Paul said something similar to the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and only then let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment against himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and quite a few are sleeping in death. 31 But if we would discern what we ourselves are, we would not be judged.

[JehovahsWitness]

But the command from Christ (which is part of the 'everything' in Matt 28:20) is to eat and drink.

WHO did he command to eat and drink?

DOES EVERY WORD JESUS SAID TO EVERYONE DURING HIS MINISTRY APPLY TO EVERY CHRISTIAN?

Jesus told Martha to stop cooking so much, her family to roll away a stone and Peter and John to go and fetch donkey. Christians that read the gospels without insight or regard for context make nonsense of the Word of God.

Christ commanded His apostles to eat and drink (the bread and wine that mean His body and blood) ...

Whether this specific command, given in a very private setting to eleven carefully selected men was to be applied to the entirity of his folllwers for all time. is an interprétations issue. Some say yes, others no. Jehovahs Witnesses say "no" and have solid scriptural support for their position.




JW




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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , THE 144, 000 and ... THE GREAT CROWD

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #4]
I see you do not know what that "little flock" is going to do on heaven. We could teach you a couple of things, so after you are a student, maybe you will know like to be a teacher of something.

It is kind of you to offer, though I did a bible study with jws some years back, a study that lasted for two years.

As for the matter of being a teacher, I must listen to my Lord here:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers."

I will teach you: that little flock with which Jesus made a covenant (as you read before in the biblical text I quoted) will go to heaven to serve as priests with Jesus, the High Priest, and they will be kings with him, as you can learn from the biblical quotes I showed you before. In Revelation you can read about the same group, but at that point you can see the total amount that this small group of kings and priests reaches. PRIESTS, do you remember the example I mentioned you about the priests in Jerusalem temple?

Let's read more from the Scriptures about them:

Rev. 1:5 (...) To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
... 5:8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Did you notice over who are going to reign those who are part of the small group that goes to heaven?

Do you notice, dear Eloi, that 'people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation' actually describes the Great Crowd (and would include the twelve tribes of the 144 000). It does not describe the 144 000 (at least not solely the 144 000).


Look:

From revelation 5:9 (that you quote above),

“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation , and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God,

Compared with Revelation 7 (describing the Great Crowd),

After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;


The Great Crowd (including the 144 000) reign with Christ as kings and priests upon the earth. As stated in the previous post, the Great Crowd are rendering sacred service (something priests do) IN the Temple.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you,

(...) The WTS commands something different (...)

That is a false accusation, and I guess it is because you are not reading what we really teach. We tell that if a person does not belong to the group that will be "kings and priests" with Jesus, they should not drink or eat of the emblems. Some of us think they are part, and so they drink and eat of them.
Have you noticed how wrong your accusation is?

The teaching is wrong, dear Eloi. The teaching gets people (who are listening to the WTS) to stop (or never start) eating and drinking. Christ is the One saying, Here is my flesh, take and eat. Here is my blood of the new covenant, poured out for YOU. Take and drink.

See Mark 9:7,

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

Actually, Paul said something similar to the Corinthians:

1 Cor. 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the loaf or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty respecting the body and the blood of the Lord. 28 First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and only then let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup. 29 For the one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment against himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and quite a few are sleeping in death. 31 But if we would discern what we ourselves are, we would not be judged.

Paul is not talking about people with different hopes or callings. There was no such teaching of different hopes or callings. EVERYONE ate and drank.

The WTS falsely uses this verse to instill fear in her members, to keep them from eating and drinking.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #4]
I see you do not know what that "little flock" is going to do on heaven. We could teach you a couple of things, so after you are a student, maybe you will know like to be a teacher of something.

It is kind of you to offer, though I did a bible study with jws some years back, a study that lasted for two years.

As for the matter of being a teacher, I must listen to my Lord here:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers."

I will teach you: that little flock with which Jesus made a covenant (as you read before in the biblical text I quoted) will go to heaven to serve as priests with Jesus, the High Priest, and they will be kings with him, as you can learn from the biblical quotes I showed you before. In Revelation you can read about the same group, but at that point you can see the total amount that this small group of kings and priests reaches. PRIESTS, do you remember the example I mentioned you about the priests in Jerusalem temple?

Let's read more from the Scriptures about them:

Rev. 1:5 (...) To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
... 5:8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Did you notice over who are going to reign those who are part of the small group that goes to heaven?

Do you notice, dear Eloi, that 'people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation' actually describes the Great Crowd (and would include the twelve tribes of the 144 000). It does not describe the 144 000 (at least not solely the 144 000).

Of course, I do realize what you say. The 144000 are taken out of the 12 tribus of Israel. Do you think the 144,000 are literal Jews?

Look:

From revelation 5:9 (that you quote above),

“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation , and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God,

Compared with Revelation 7 (describing the Great Crowd),

After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;


The Great Crowd (including the 144 000) reign with Christ as kings and priests upon the earth. As stated in the previous post, the Great Crowd are rendering sacred service (something priests do) IN the Temple.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Did you know that the term "Israel" from the point of view of the apostles' teachings applies to the entire world community of true Christian worshipers, whether Jewish or not? It is obvious that this great group is the one that will inherit the earth in the future (Ps. 37: 9-11; Matt. 5: 5) and if the 144,000 had not been taken from among them to be kings, from where would they then have been taken?

Think of it this way: For Christians, Israel is the group of people occupying territory ruled by Jehovah. As in paradise that territory encompasses the entire planet, then all humanity of the future constitutes Israel in this particular sense.

[Eloi]

[Replying to tam in post #3]Really?

Do you think the non-Levite Israelites resented the priests?

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES HAVING A DIFFERENT HOPE MEAN CHRISTS TRUE CHURCH IS DISUNITED?

It is to be expected that those that claim they have no need for an organised religion and thus remain united in name only with other Christian groups and individuals, find it hard grasp the unity enjoyed by true Christians.

In reality, there is no division between those anointed (and destined to be rulers with Christ) and those Christians whose hope is to one day live under their rulership. The same laws and principles apply to both groups, one does not "Lord it over the other" and indeed, it would be impossible to know from watching them, who has which hope. Both the "other sheep" and their "anointed" brothers and sisters, are happy to serve their wonderful God Jehovah side by side and history testifies they are bound with a love that the world finds hard to understand and harder to duplicate.

It is evident that Jehovah's Witnesses, no matter what their hope have become one flock as Jesus foretold.

NOTE : The anointed do not have special titles ("Rabbi" "Reverant" "Father" or "Mother Theresa") , nor do they constitute a "clergy class". Their hope does not automatically entitle them to any special privileges or honor in the congregation.

JW



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[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #4]
I see you do not know what that "little flock" is going to do on heaven. We could teach you a couple of things, so after you are a student, maybe you will know like to be a teacher of something.

It is kind of you to offer, though I did a bible study with jws some years back, a study that lasted for two years.

As for the matter of being a teacher, I must listen to my Lord here:

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers."

I will teach you: that little flock with which Jesus made a covenant (as you read before in the biblical text I quoted) will go to heaven to serve as priests with Jesus, the High Priest, and they will be kings with him, as you can learn from the biblical quotes I showed you before. In Revelation you can read about the same group, but at that point you can see the total amount that this small group of kings and priests reaches. PRIESTS, do you remember the example I mentioned you about the priests in Jerusalem temple?

Let's read more from the Scriptures about them:

Rev. 1:5 (...) To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.
... 5:8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, and each one had a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense. (The incense means the prayers of the holy ones.) 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Did you notice over who are going to reign those who are part of the small group that goes to heaven?

Do you notice, dear Eloi, that 'people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation' actually describes the Great Crowd (and would include the twelve tribes of the 144 000). It does not describe the 144 000 (at least not solely the 144 000).

Of course, I do realize what you say. The 144000 are taken out of the 12 tribus of Israel. Do you think the 144,000 are literal Jews?

The Great Crowd are the ones who reign with Christ; the Great Crowd is being described at Rev 5:10. Same description at Rev 5:10 as at Rev 7:9. This is the same group.


The 144 000, as you said, is taken from the twelve listed tribes of Israel. The descendants of two of those tribes are literal Jews (descendants from Judah and Benjamin, which made up the Northern Kingdom of Judah). The rest are literal descendants from the other ten tribes (also known as the Northern Kingdom of "Israel", or Samaritans).

They might not know they are literal Israel, but surely we can agree that God would know.

Look:

From revelation 5:9 (that you quote above),

“You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation , and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God,

Compared with Revelation 7 (describing the Great Crowd),

After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;


The Great Crowd (including the 144 000) reign with Christ as kings and priests upon the earth. As stated in the previous post, the Great Crowd are rendering sacred service (something priests do) IN the Temple.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Did you know that the term "Israel" from the point of view of the apostles' teachings applies to the entire world community of true Christian worshipers, whether Jewish or not?

That would depend upon the context. Didn't Paul speak about gentiles being grafted IN to Israel. So that some branches were grafted in (from Gentiles) and some were natural branches. Meaning that there is literal Israel as well. That is all the 144 000 is referring to: a set number reserved for literal Israel, 12000 from each of the 12 listed tribes.

It is obvious that this great group is the one that will inherit the earth in the future (Ps. 37: 9-11; Matt. 5: 5) and if the 144,000 had not been taken from among them to be kings, from where would they then have been taken?

From twelve tribes of Israel. Exactly as the text also states itself.

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.


This is very specific. It is not just talking about spiritual Israel (encompassing both natural and grafted in branches). It is talking specifically about the tribes of Israel. The literal tribes of Israel. Who among the apostles ever used Judah to represent gentiles grafted in? Or Benjamin? Or Issachar? The tribes (and so also Israel in this specific instance) are just as literal as the number forming the 144 000. The 144 000 are made up of 12 specific tribes, 12000 from each tribe. Just as the text states.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

(...) The Great Crowd (including the 144 000) reign with Christ as kings and priests upon the earth.

That is not what the Bible says. The great crowd survives the great tribulation that occurs on earth ... and here it stays, because the 144,000 have already gone to heaven and are next to Jesus for that moment.

As stated in the previous post, the Great Crowd are rendering sacred service (something priests do) IN the Temple. (...)

Obviously, since Scripture says that God will reside with humanity and will spread "his tent" over them.

Rev. 7:15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.

No king will rule an empty earth.

And yes, obviously Jesus Christ spoke of two hopes ... you just overlooked it:

Matt. 5:5 “Happy are the mild-tempered, since they will inherit the earth.

Luke 22:28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

John 13:36 Simon Peter said to him: “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered: “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterwards.” (...) 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God; exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.

[tam]

Peace to you,

DOES HAVING A DIFFERENT HOPE MEAN CHRISTS TRUE CHURCH IS DISUNITED?

There is no different hope though.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; Ephesians 4:4


And the Church is the Body of Christ (also the Bride).

And God put everything under His feet and made Him head over everything for the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless Ephesians 5:26 (and onward)


Where did Christ ever teach that His Church (His Body) had different hopes? Different commands? That some of His Body should partake, but others of His Body should not? He said just the opposite! John 6.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy.