The soul and the eternal soul

[Ross]

Here I am to learn about a Bible topic that I admittedly have never studied in any depth. I am bringing no pre conceived views; and I will base my conclusion upon the evidence provided. Please help me to understand this.

Firstly what is the soul of a man or woman?

Secondly, do other creatures have this?

And thirdly does Bible scripture give any indication that the soul lives on after death and or is immortal?

[Ross]

This is your statement that I am commenting about "soul cannot be killed by man"

I will repeat once again if I must. It is not my statement. It is scripture: Mat 10:28;

"Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

You are unable to explain this, and insist on writing it off, denying the unmistakable words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is your statement that I am commenting about .... "The soul sleeps in death"

If you are so familiar with lexicons, you will be fully aware that both old and new testaments describe death as sleep? It is not permanent death. Not real death.

I'm unsure how you define soul. I define soul basing Gen 2:7, as man have life or a living man.

That is how Genesis reveals it to us. But Jesus and the Greek scriptures gives a more complete description, dividing the body from the soul, and introducing the concept of resurrection and the first and second death.



Genesis 4:1: The Lord asking Cain

“What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground."

Yes, God knows everything that happened, He just first inquired where his brother was, closely urges him in order to extort an unwilling confession of his guilt.

You have completely avoided my highlighted words.

How was Abel's blood crying out to The Lord from the ground when the man was dead?

[Capbook]

Remember Bible lexicon defined "soul" in that verse as "breath of life(spirit) and living soul.

Bible lexicons are written by men who attempt to understand ancient lost languages used for scripture. They often interpret their beliefs or misunderstandings into them.
I believe this lexicons comment is incorrect

Lexicons define Bible words, and I noticed JWs rarely used lexicons.

I am not a Jehovah's Witness. But you are correct. They are encouraged only to use the literature their movement prints.

Anyway verse below does interchange spirit and soul.

Luke 1:46-47
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
ASV

Rather than Mary stating that her soul was her spirit or her spirit was her soul, to the contrary, she clearly separates the two.

My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

It is also quite likely that she was referring to her spirit in the sense of worshiping God with "spirit and truth" John 4:24 rather than the "breath of life" that returns to God upon death.

So, what do you think "unable to kill soul" mean in Mat 18:28, applied to?
Indestructible spirit or destructible soul.

My own view is that we take the words of Jesus as the highest authority; and as the mark on which to base our understanding of related scripture.
He used the word soul not the word spirit, and men cannot kill the soul.

The breath of life (spirit) returns to God upon death.
The body dies and disintegrates.
The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome.
That soul can be destroyed only in the second death.

I goes back to your Post#35, I colored blue the statement above. And I'm sure it's from you but seems you've tried avoiding it.
I'll just deal with this for now.
Do that "soul that sleeps in death awaiting resurrection" already suffered the second death?

[Ross]

The breath of life (spirit) returns to God upon death.
The body dies and disintegrates.
The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome.
That soul can be destroyed only in the second death.

I goes back to your Post#35, I colored blue the statement above. And I'm sure it's from you but seems you've tried avoiding it.
I'll just deal with this for now.
Do that "soul that sleeps in death awaiting resurrection" already suffered the second death?

No, only the first death which is the death we are familiar with. It would not make any sense for the second death to have resurrection.

I avoid nothing. I search for truth and I am always prepared to change my view if I am shown to be incorrect.

[Capbook]

The breath of life (spirit) returns to God upon death.
The body dies and disintegrates.
The soul sleeps in death awaiting resurrection to a positive or negative outcome.
That soul can be destroyed only in the second death.

I goes back to your Post#35, I colored blue the statement above. And I'm sure it's from you but seems you've tried avoiding it.
I'll just deal with this for now.
Do that "soul that sleeps in death awaiting resurrection" already suffered the second death?

No, only the first death which is the death we are familiar with. It would not make any sense for the second death to have resurrection.

Yes, based on Genesis definition of soul, who killed Abel's (a living soul) first death?

Genesis 4:8 text with Strong's Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defined "slew" in Hebrew "harag" as put to death, kill, murder, make slaughter, slay, etc.

OT:202 harag (haw-rag'); a primitive root; to smite with deadly intent:
KJV - destroy, out of hand, kill, murder (-er), put to [death], make [slaughter], slay (-er), surely.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

I avoid nothing. I search for truth and I am always prepared to change my view if I am shown to be incorrect.]

I view it as avoidance on your Post#37, as it did not relate to Mat 10:28, second death.

[Ross]

Genesis 4:8 text with Strong's Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defined "slew" in Hebrew "harag" as put to death, kill, murder, make slaughter, slay, etc.

OT:202 harag (haw-rag'); a primitive root; to smite with deadly intent:
KJV - destroy, out of hand, kill, murder (-er), put to [death], make [slaughter], slay (-er), surely.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

You sure seem to be obsessed with those dictionaries. I think everyone knows what kill or die means without all that exhaustive explanation.

I view it as avoidance on your Post#37, as it did not relate to Mat 10:28, second death.

I'm not quite clear what you mean by that

Mathew 10:28 refers to both the first and the second death.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body [first death]
but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[second death]"

So, to continue; am I correct in concluding that you think Jesus when he uttered "soul" in that statement, really meant 'spirit' ( the life or ability to be alive that all creatures possess ) that returns to God upon dying?

[Capbook]

Genesis 4:8 text with Strong's Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary defined "slew" in Hebrew "harag" as put to death, kill, murder, make slaughter, slay, etc.

OT:202 harag (haw-rag'); a primitive root; to smite with deadly intent:
KJV - destroy, out of hand, kill, murder (-er), put to [death], make [slaughter], slay (-er), surely.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

You sure seem to be obsessed with those dictionaries. I think everyone knows what kill or die means without all that exhaustive explanation.

As for me, my opinion matter less, evidence matters more.

I view it as avoidance on your Post#37, as it did not relate to Mat 10:28, second death.

I'm not quite clear what you mean by that

Mathew 10:28 refers to both the first and the second death.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body [first death]
but cannot kill the soul.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.[second death]"

Yes, but your statement hinted on the first death, not the second death. You may see back your Post#37.

So, to continue; am I correct in concluding that you think Jesus when he uttered "soul" in that statement, really meant 'spirit' ( the life or ability to be alive that all creatures possess ) that returns to God upon dying?

If the living soul Abel was killed by Cain, that is my opposition to your stand that the soul cannot be killed by man. Regarding Mat 10 :28, the "soul" had wide definition, if you say cannot be killed, I refer you to the other definition as spirit returns to God, and I believe it cannot be killed. But my belief is all wicked soul be killed permanently in the second death. But the soul can be killed by man or other ways, temporarily as sleep, awaiting resurrection and judgement.

[Ross]

Regarding Mat 10 :28, the "soul" had wide definition, if you say cannot be killed, I refer you to the other definition as spirit returns to God, and I believe it cannot be killed. But my belief is all wicked soul be killed permanently in the second death.

Mat 10;28
"Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul;
rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If you insist that "soul" in Mat 10:28 (a) means something other than "soul", i.e. the spirit or breath of The Almighty God,
then you would have to insist that "soul" in Mat 10:28 (b) also means the spirit or breath of The Almighty God.

So how is it logical or reasonable or scriptural to ascertain that God would destroy his own spirit or breath in hell?

Or how is it logical or reasonable or scriptural to say that Jesus meant spirit in one half of his sentence but soul in the other, which is what you have just said?

[Capbook]

Regarding Mat 10 :28, the "soul" had wide definition, if you say cannot be killed, I refer you to the other definition as spirit returns to God, and I believe it cannot be killed. But my belief is all wicked soul be killed permanently in the second death.

=Mat 10;28
"Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul;
rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If you insist that "soul" in Mat 10:28 (a) means something other than "soul", i.e. the spirit or breath of The Almighty God,
then you would have to insist that "soul" in Mat 10:28 (b) also means the spirit or breath of The Almighty God.

My opposition is to your statement that "soul cannot be killed by man," but man Cain killed living soul Abel, I've quoted Bible text. I did not insist that soul is solely breath of life(spirit), but I give you the wide definition of soul including breath of life. Then you insist that soul cannot be killed by man, so, basing to that the Bible lexicon definition I suggested to you to the other definition that some Bible text interchange.
My question to you is, who do you understand that "cannot kill the soul" then.

So how is it logical or reasonable or scriptural to ascertain that God would destroy his own spirit or breath in hell?

Or how is it logical or reasonable or scriptural to say that Jesus meant spirit in one half of his sentence but soul in the other, which is what you have just said?

I posted Bible lexicon and it define wide definition of "soul" and both were there and others also. Logical application through context maybe applied, but my main opposition to you is to your statement that "soul cannot be killed by man." An opposition to the OP re: eternal soul.

[Ross]

if you say cannot be killed

Have you ever heard the song by Shaggy: 'It wasn't me?'

It was your Lord who said this. This must be the fifth or sixth time I've repeated this. You deny his words.

Mat 10;28
"Don't fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul;
rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

My opposition is to your statement that "soul cannot be killed by man," but man Cain killed living soul Abel, I've quoted Bible text. I did not insist that soul is solely breath of life(spirit), but I give you the wide definition of soul including breath of life. Then you insist that soul cannot be killed by man, so, basing to that the Bible lexicon definition I suggested to you to the other definition that some Bible text interchange.

I posted Bible lexicon and it define wide definition of "soul" and both were there and others also. Logical application through context maybe applied,

Once again you have completely avoided answering my questions, and refer to Lexicon gibber

[Ross]

My question to you is, who do you understand that "cannot kill the soul" then.

Those who kill the body