Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

[Wootah]

Many here seem to believe Gehenna is just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem and not a reference to hell.

Pulling an argument from this video (around the 16-minute mark):

Mark 9 vs 43-49 says: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why does Jesus talk about entering into life and the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem in the same sentence? Do you really believe people thought hey let's follow Jesus so we don't go into the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or do you think they knew Jesus meant hell?

Also since that rubbish tip's fire is quenched now and has been for a long time then doesn't that mean Jesus is a liar when he says that the fire there never shall be quenched?

[tam]

Peace to you all!

Yes, so do you acknowledge that for your belief system eternal life is also a metaphor? ...

No, eternal means forever/to continue indefintely.

That's his point, JW. Eternal punishment (the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense) is not eternal (continuing forever/indefinitely) in the case of the receiver of that punishment being annihilated. In that case, it would only be momentary at best.

No, the death (the cessation of existence, the utter destruction) is eternal.

I really don't understand why that is so hard to grasp.

The death is eternal.


Therefore, the punishment (death) is eternal.

There can be no resurrection from it, no coming back from it. It (death/cessation of existence/utter destruction) is eternal.



Peace again.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #39]

The literal argument doesn't hold because the Gehenna fire is quenched and the worms are dead there (at least the ones at that time).

So if you are taking it literally then how do you not make Jesus a liar? Explain that please.

Here is a picture today. No fire, no visible worms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of ... _(Gehenna)

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #38]

OK, what evidence is there that Jews thought that the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem was literally hell?

This is my googlefu effort to help you.

https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/n ... wish-hell/
https://www.learnreligions.com/what-is-gehenna-2076760

[Checkpoint]

Wootah post_id=1050718 time=1632186609 user_id=6289]
[Replying to Checkpoint in post #39]

The literal argument doesn't hold because the Gehenna fire is quenched and the worms are dead there (at least the ones at that time).

So if you are taking it literally then how do you not make Jesus a liar? Explain that please.

Here is a picture today. No fire, no visible worms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valley_of ... _(Gehenna)

Wootah, you are effectively flogging a dead horse.

As I posted, Jesus was not speaking about the Gehenna that then was, that was literally there. Instead, he spoke about the Gehenna that will be at the eternal judgment.

Therefore there is nothing more needed to refute your suggestion that Jesus was a liar.

[myth-one.com]

Flies and other bugs lay eggs in corpses, and their larvae or maggots eat the dead bodies.

That is what the "worms" are.

The bodies of nonbelievers cast into the lake of fire are quickly cremated in the fire!

"Worms" never have time to develop in bodies which are quickly cremated.

Thus the worm of nonbelievers will never die, because they never lived.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #44]

Wootah, you are effectively flogging a dead horse.

As I posted, Jesus was not speaking about the Gehenna that then was, that was literally there. Instead, he spoke about the Gehenna that will be at the eternal judgment.

Therefore there is nothing more needed to refute your suggestion that Jesus was a liar.

I might be misunderstanding your position with others. I agree Jesus was not talking about a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem. He is speaking about hell and eternal judgement where the fire never goes out and their worm never dies, ie: eternal suffering in hell.

[Wootah]

Flies and other bugs lay eggs in corpses, and their larvae or maggots eat the dead bodies.

That is what the "worms" are.

The bodies of nonbelievers cast into the lake of fire are quickly cremated in the fire!

"Worms" never have time to develop in bodies which are quickly cremated.

Thus the worm of nonbelievers will never die, because they never lived.

And you think that is what Jesus thought?

When Jesus said their worm never dies, because in his mind he was saying, "'Worms' never have time to develop in bodies which are quickly cremated. Thus the worm of nonbelievers will never die, because they never lived."

[Wootah]

HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a

Yes but this is connecting with the annihilation thread. Death is the end of punishment in the same way that ending a prison sentence means the end of the punishment.

If we have a criminal worthy of the sentence of death and we execute that sentence they are considered punished. Actually, I am sure there is some 'law' about if a hanged man survives the ordeal they can't be punished again (maybe that is just a Western fable). Anyway. If we have a criminal who has served their sentence in prison and we then execute them we are being unjust.

Either way, through execution, if deserved or through time in prison, the criminal has paid for their sentence. So a just God would let them into heaven. Only an unjust God would keep a person who has paid the price for their sin out of heaven.

So God would not annihilate a sinner because that would mean that God cannot justly make them serve their sentence and the act of annihilation would let them into heaven.

[Checkpoint]

HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a

Yes but this is connecting with the annihilation thread. Death is the end of punishment in the same way that ending a prison sentence means the end of the punishment.

If we have a criminal worthy of the sentence of death and we execute that sentence they are considered punished. Actually, I am sure there is some 'law' about if a hanged man survives the ordeal they can't be punished again (maybe that is just a Western fable). Anyway. If we have a criminal who has served their sentence in prison and we then execute them we are being unjust.

Either way, through execution, if deserved or through time in prison, the criminal has paid for their sentence. So a just God would let them into heaven. Only an unjust God would keep a person who has paid the price for their sin out of heaven.

So God would not annihilate a sinner because that would mean that God cannot justly make them serve their sentence and the act of annihilation would let them into heaven.

What did I just read? My head seems toooooo be in a spin, or spinning. Help!

Perhaps a bunch of...

Never mind, guess it comes with the territory.

Oh, by the way, what's that about "the annihilation thread"?

Never heard of it. Which one is it?

[Wootah]

HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a

Yes but this is connecting with the annihilation thread. Death is the end of punishment in the same way that ending a prison sentence means the end of the punishment.

If we have a criminal worthy of the sentence of death and we execute that sentence they are considered punished. Actually, I am sure there is some 'law' about if a hanged man survives the ordeal they can't be punished again (maybe that is just a Western fable). Anyway. If we have a criminal who has served their sentence in prison and we then execute them we are being unjust.

Either way, through execution, if deserved or through time in prison, the criminal has paid for their sentence. So a just God would let them into heaven. Only an unjust God would keep a person who has paid the price for their sin out of heaven.

So God would not annihilate a sinner because that would mean that God cannot justly make them serve their sentence and the act of annihilation would let them into heaven.

What did I just read? My head seems toooooo be in a spin, or spinning. Help!

Perhaps a bunch of...

Never mind, guess it comes with the territory.

Oh, by the way, what's that about "the annihilation thread"?

Never heard of it. Which one is it?

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