Gehenna - just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

[Wootah]

Many here seem to believe Gehenna is just a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem and not a reference to hell.

Pulling an argument from this video (around the 16-minute mark):

Mark 9 vs 43-49 says: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Why does Jesus talk about entering into life and the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem in the same sentence? Do you really believe people thought hey let's follow Jesus so we don't go into the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem or do you think they knew Jesus meant hell?

Also since that rubbish tip's fire is quenched now and has been for a long time then doesn't that mean Jesus is a liar when he says that the fire there never shall be quenched?

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #26]

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that all references to worm in the bible are literal?

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Worms

Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

Nations shall lick dust and move like worms. Literal?

Also if you are being literal here: Jesus said, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The worms in gehenna did and do die and the fire of gehenna the garbage tip is quenched now. So you think Jesus is a liar?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #26]

Do you have any evidence to support your claim that all references to worm in the bible are literal?

Yes I do.

That evidence is right there in each relevant verse. It is what anyone's eye can see from what is correctly translated.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/words/Worms

Micah 7:16 The nations shall see and be confounded at all their might: they shall lay their hand upon their mouth, their ears shall be deaf.

17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the Lord our God, and shall fear because of thee.

9quote]Nations shall lick dust and move like worms. Literal?

Also if you are being literal here: Jesus said, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The worms in gehenna did and do die and the fire of gehenna the garbage tip is quenched now. So you think Jesus is a liar?

Nah.

We used to have this saying: "Inch by inch it's a cinch".

This case is that for me; for you, not so much.

Like worms? A like comparison is literal, isn't it?

Trust the good old KJJV, huh?

Sometimes, but not this time.

My Bible source had only 9 translations of the Micah passage. The word "worms" does not appear in 8 of them. Instead they have "crawling creatures", or similar.

Yes, what Jesus said in Mark 9, or repeated, was literal, just as was the OT passage much of it came from.

As I already affirmed, Jesus did not lie.

That post of yours I just answered made my day!

Grace and peace to you, Wootah.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Wootah in post #1]
I guess you're trying to say there are worms in hell too? Worms with eternal life it seems. What did they do to have such a torment? Exactly what animal other life is in hell?

I think the worm is symbolic of their sin that they will live with forever, rather than being washed clean.

edit: BUT this is a problem for the annihilationist. 'where their worm dieth not' implies that some part of them is not annihilated? Why would the worm not die but they get annihilated? Please make it make sense.

So you CAN see that something can be symbolic. The question is why are the worms symbolic and yet the whole reference to Gehenna isn't? What makes your interpretation of the worms right?

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes, so do you acknowledge that for your belief system eternal life is also a metaphor? ...

No, eternal means forever/to continue indefintely. And life is the quite literally opposite of death. We belive obedient humans will literally continue living as such forever; so no I dont believe the expression is a metaphor.

...Is 'enter into life' a metaphor?

No, I would rather classify it as an idiomatic expression.

Idiomatic expressions are groups of words with an established meaning unrelated to the meanings of the individual words. Sometimes called an expression, an idiom can be very colorful and make a 'picture' in our minds

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[PinSeeker]

Yes, so do you acknowledge that for your belief system eternal life is also a metaphor? ...

No, eternal means forever/to continue indefintely.

That's his point, JW. Eternal punishment (the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense) is not eternal (continuing forever/indefinitely) in the case of the receiver of that punishment being annihilated. In that case, it would only be momentary at best.

And life is the quite literally opposite of death.

Absolutely. But both, with regard to eternity, are a state of existence and thus experiential realities.

...Is 'enter into life' a metaphor?

No, I would rather classify it as an idiomatic expression.

I agree. And I would say the same regarding entering into eternal punishment.

Grace and peace to you.

[Wootah]

Yes, so do you acknowledge that for your belief system eternal life is also a metaphor? ...

No, eternal means forever/to continue indefintely.

That's his point, JW. Eternal punishment (the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense) is not eternal (continuing forever/indefinitely) in the case if the receiver of that punishment being annihilated. In that case, it would only be momentary at best.

And life is the quite literally opposite of death.

Absolutely. But both, with regard to eternity, are a state of existence and thus experiential realities.

...Is 'enter into life' a metaphor?

No, I would rather classify it as an idiomatic expression.

I agree. And I would say the same regarding entering into eternal punishment.

Grace and peace to you.

Exactly my point. You define one part of Jesus speech one way and the other another way.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #32]
I wrote:

Also if you are being literal here: Jesus said, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The worms in gehenna did and do die and the fire of gehenna the garbage tip is quenched now. So you think Jesus is a liar?

You wrote:

Yes, what Jesus said in Mark 9, or repeated, was literal, just as was the OT passage much of it came from.

As I already affirmed, Jesus did not lie.

Where is your rebuttal?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #26]

So is Gehenna literal? Do you think Jesus is talking about a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem?

Jesus is not "talking about a rubbish tip outside Jerusalem". This was then the literal actual Gehenna of man.

What he talked about was the coming actual literal Gehenna of God, which will come upon those refused entry into the coming kingdom, the paradise of God.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #32]
I wrote:

Also if you are being literal here: Jesus said, "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The worms in gehenna did and do die and the fire of gehenna the garbage tip is quenched now. So you think Jesus is a liar?

You wrote:

Yes, what Jesus said in Mark 9, or repeated, was literal, just as was the OT passage much of it came from.

As I already affirmed, Jesus did not lie.

Where is your rebuttal?

My rebuttle of what exactly?

[JehovahsWitness]

Eternal punishment (the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offense) is not eternal (continuing forever/indefinitely) in the case of the receiver of that punishment being annihilated. In that case, it would only be momentary at best.

HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT?

If the punishment is: to be permanently non-existent, then it lasts until the person starts to exist again. In short the punishment isn't DYING momentary instant one passes from life to death (which both good and evil experience), it is perpetual/perpetual unending (everlasting) death.

But only the living would be aware the wicked one is permanently dead? Indeed thus the many biblical images of a permenent testimony to what had happened "everlasting smoke" , "undying worms/maggots"; a permanent warning for the living that divine judgement took place.



JW

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