CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[PinSeeker]

Trinitarian polytheism:

Father = God
Son = God
H.S. = God

Three Gods.


Monotheistic non-trinitarian belief:

Father = God

One God.
This is only the Jehovah's Witness perception, which is contrived to suit the Watchtower agenda. It is a misrepresentation of believers in the triune Jehovah. Believers in the the Three Persons of the One Jehovah are just as monotheistic as Jehovah's Witnesses claim themselves to be.

The monotheistic approach agrees with Jesus himself who stated that the Father alone is "the only true God." (John 17:3)

As you know and will well attest, God/Jehovah also says:

• "I will not give My glory to another..." [Isaiah 42:8]

And in the same breath as your citation of John 17:3, Jesus also says:

• "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." [John 17:5]

So, did Jehovah go back on His Word issued through Isaiah above? Or did He lie to His people through Isaiah? Or conversely, did Jesus lie about having the same glory with the Father as recorded by John? Or was He merely mistaken... or deluded? Or did He ask the Father for something that He knew He would never get? Well, of course, the answer is an resounding no to all of these questions, and that cannot be disputed with any credibility whatsoever.

The Watchtower Society would have you believe, however, that the answer is yes to at least one of these questions, if not more than one or even all. Whatever the case, this is most assuredly incorrect. But God will set all things right in His time.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

Trinitarian polytheism:

Father = God
Son = God
H.S. = God

Three Gods.


Monotheistic non-trinitarian belief:

Father = God

One God.
This is only the Jehovah's Witness perception, which is contrived to suit the Watchtower agenda. It is a misrepresentation of believers in the triune Jehovah. Believers in the the Three Persons of the One Jehovah are just as monotheistic as Jehovah's Witnesses claim themselves to be.

The monotheistic approach agrees with Jesus himself who stated that the Father alone is "the only true God." (John 17:3)

As you know and will well attest, God/Jehovah also says:

• "I will not give My glory to another..." [Isaiah 42:8]

And in the same breath as your citation of John 17:3, Jesus also says:

• "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." [John 17:5]

Huge problem...you are admitting that Jesus at one time was not glorified? According to your scripture Jesus was asking to be glorified again...why can't Jesus do his own glorifying and when did he lose it? If Jesus were a part of God then wouldn't he be already be glorified?
Romans 8:30 states, "Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified."
Don't you believe that you're going to be declared righteous? According to Romans 8:30, those declared righteous will be glorified...are you expecting to be part of the trinity? But if millions become part of God because they are glorified it's no longer three is it....what will it be called then?

Arguments for the trinity never make since. It makes more since that Jesus asked not for God's glory but for his own. Thus Isaiah 42:8 still holds true in that Jehovah didn't give His Son His glory but gave His Son his own glory. Just as Jehovah will give the righteous, not glory meant for Jehovah God, but the righteous get their own glory set aside for them. Or like I said do you really expect to be part of God because you're glorified?

[PinSeeker]

Huge problem...

Oh, I'm sure you see one... <chuckles> But that's because you are predisposed to manufacturing one to suit your own narrative. We can all fall into that from time to time.

you are admitting that Jesus at one time was not glorified? According to your scripture Jesus was asking to be glorified again...why can't Jesus do his own glorifying and when did he lose it? If Jesus were a part of God then wouldn't he be already be glorified?

No, Jesus was not at one or any time "not glorified." This has been and is my point in stating -- as we read in Hebrews 13:8 -- that "Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Meaning He is the same -- and possesses the same glory, with the Father, from eternity past to today and into eternity future. This cannot be disbelieved without at least unwittingly disputing Scripture.

Having said that... During His time on earth (0-33 A.D.), Jesus, "...though he was in the form of God... emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men," as Paul says in Philippians 2:6-7. This means, 2timothy316, as I have said and will continue to say, that Christ was in the form of God -- Greek 'morphe,' meaning that which corresponds inwardly to an outer appearance -- so Paul is saying that the Son of God shares fully in the very essence of God and therefore in full possession of the glory of God before, during, and after His life on earth. Now, I know the Watchtower spin on this, and we've been round and round with it, but it's just that: spin. To suit a predisposition toward a certain narrative. Rather than having that narrative shaped by Scripture itself.

So to answer your second "question" first, yes, He was already glorified -- in full possession, as God the Son, of the Shekinah glory of the triune Jehovah -- actually, that He is the Shekinah Glory, a visible manifestation of God on earth.

And then to answer your first "question" (which actually consists of two "questions"), we look at the same passage of Scripture: Jesus, "...though he was in the form of God... emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men," the principle is the same because the word Paul uses is the same. Having emptied Himself (more on this in a moment), during His time on earth (0-33 A.D.), He was also in the form of mere man -- again, Greek 'morphe,' meaning that which corresponds inwardly to an outer appearance -- so Paul is saying that the Son of God shares fully in the very essence of mere man.

Now, back to Jesus's emptying of Himself. Notice that God the Father did not "empty" (or somehow "strip") Jesus of His status, but rather, Jesus emptied Himself. He still had it, but laid it aside for a time, regarding it as not His to exploit. This is (or should be, anyway) easy to understand: By the same token, in view of current events and the hypertension regarding racism, I can empty myself of my Caucasian heritage for the sake of brotherhood and empathy towards and love for my African-American brethren and am striving to do so. But am I not Caucasian anymore? Well of course not; that would be a silly thought to entertain for even a moment. But again, I am striving -- with all my heart -- to empty myself of my Caucasian heritage for the sake of brotherhood and empathy towards and love for my African-American brethren. We are actually commanded in Scripture to offer ourselves as living sacrifices (Romans 12:1) for the good of others -- like Jesus did literally by laying down His own life for all of us -- and pursuing what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding (Romans 14:19).

Romans 8:30 states, "Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous. Finally those whom he declared righteous are the ones he also glorified." Don't you believe that you're going to be declared righteous? According to Romans 8:30, those declared righteous will be glorified...are you expecting to be part of the trinity? But if millions become part of God because they are glorified it's no longer three is it....what will it be called then?

Well, I have already been declared righteous -- justified -- by God the Father, because I am in Christ Jesus, Who is my righteousness (I have no righteousness in and of myself). And you have too, if you are in Christ. But, you know, repentance and belief are essential to being in Christ, and if a person does not believe Christ is God (again, 'morphe,' corresponding inwardly to an outer appearance and thus sharing fully in the very essence of God and therefore in full possession of the glory of God before, during, and after His life on earth), then that calls into question that person's belief and thus faith, which itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8) and the precursor to true belief and repentance -- and thus that person's true position in relation to God's great salvation itself.

Yes, according to Romans 8:30, my glorification (and yours, hopefully) is a certainty. But I will not -- none of us, believer or unbeliever -- ever be part of the triune Jehovah. What we will be is co-heirs (meaning amongst us men) of the Kingdom with Christ, but this does not mean we will ever be part of the Godhead. You're right; if that were the case, Jehovah would not really be three Persons anymore but numbering as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore, but that too is a silly thought to entertain even for a moment.

Arguments for the trinity never make since.

<chuckles> Well, 'sense,' right? But again, that's because those who disbelieve are predisposed to manufacturing an argument in opposition in order to suit a prearranged narrative. Like I said, we can all fall into that from time to time. But with Scripture, that's... Well, that's a no-no.

It makes more since that Jesus asked not for God's glory but for his own.

Well that's just it... He didn't ask for it, did He? No, rather He issued the "request" in John 17:1 and 17:5 as an imperative. It wasn't a command, of course, but rather a claim to something already His with the Father from all eternity to all eternity, which is exactly what Jesus claims... really affirms, acknowledges... in His prayer to the Father specifically in John 17:5. Through this whole prayer, Jesus speaks of a sharing of glory between the Father and the Son (and the Spirit) prior to creation, affirming the mutual giving of honor and love and glory in the interpersonal relationships of the triune Jehovah from all eternity.

And I'll add this free of charge ... As I said, we will never be part of the Trinity, but we are all to be a reflection of the Trinity in that we are to give mutual honor and love and glory to each other, as numerous passages of Scripture exhort us to do. And one day, we will do this perfectly. We will be a true, pure reflection of the Trinity -- not part of the Trinity itself but in our fellowship and glory a flawless reflection of the fellowship and glory triune Jehovah. What a great, GREAT day that will be! I so look forward to it. I can't wait! Hallelujah indeed. Come quickly, Lord Jesus!

Thus Isaiah 42:8 still holds true in that Jehovah didn't give His Son His glory but gave His Son his own glory.

Wait... He didn't but he did? But He didn't... But He did? LOL! Now, what was that you were saying about... you know... not making sense? Wow.

Just as Jehovah will give the righteous, not glory meant for Jehovah God, but the righteous get their own glory set aside for them.

Well I agree with this, in a way... Like I said, we will all -- as one -- be a true reflection for all eternity to come of the glory of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Or like I said do you really expect to be part of God because you're glorified?

LOL! No. See above.

Grace and peace to you, 2timothy316.

[emilynghiem]

(1)

Trinitarian polytheism:

Father = God
Son = God
H.S. = God

Three Gods.

(3) No, this means more like:

GOD=
Father
Son
Holy Spirit

ONE GOD

NOTE: I would AGREE With you that the way you
spelled it out above as
(1)
"Father = God
Son = God
H.S. = God
Three Gods."
Is incorrect, confusing and makes no sense to people!
Of COURSE this is wrong.

The only way this makes sense is saying
God the Father = God
Jesus = Son of God who is one with God
H.S. = Comforter, Spirit of Truth, also one God

(2)

Monotheistic non-trinitarian belief:
Father = God
One God.
The monotheistic approach agrees with Jesus himself who stated that the Father alone is "the only true God." (John 17:3)

So @onewithhim
(2) and (3) agree and are both expressions representing the SAME ONE GOD

The way you presented (1)
CONFLICTS with either (2) or (3)

So I AGREE WITH YOU that (1) is conflicting and wrong.

(2) and (3) have no conflicts with each other.

[2timothy316]

Huge problem...

Oh, I'm sure you see one... <chuckles> But that's because you are predisposed to manufacturing one to suit your own narrative. We can all fall into that from time to time.

Ah you mean like the what the Nisan counsel did in the 3rd century, which as been past down for centuries and now what they decreed dominates your narrative and you follow without question, and if you don't agree with it....well you're in trouble with your church right? Yes, indeed people do fall into that. Your post had no scripture in it. So there is nothing in your post to take seriously, Respond with scripture and I will take you more seriously. Because you said, "because I am in Christ Jesus" since Jesus is God,that makes you God...but you don't agree. You have no idea what you're talking about and why people follow this kind of reasoning is due to credulity. I see no reason to take you seriously. You also said, "Well, I have already been declared righteous -- justified -- by God the Father" which makes you arrogant and you are "predisposed to manufacturing one to suit your own narrative". Sad....such an opinion of ones self. Self-righteous I believe the term is. There is nothing to discuss with such a person that is already declared righteous. Though the Bible doesn't support your claim. So high on that pedestal...looking down on the rest of us. However after all you said, you still lack a convincing answer, all I see is delusions of glory on yourself.Sickening.

[PinSeeker]

Ah you mean like the what the Nisan counsel did in the 3rd century, which as been past down for centuries and now what they decreed dominates your narrative and you follow without question, and if you don't agree with it....well you're in trouble with your church right?

No, quite wrong.

Because you said, "because I am in Christ Jesus" since Jesus is God, that makes you God.

This is absolutely not the case. Rather, because I am in Christ Jesus, His righteousness is imputed to me, which does not mean I have any righteousness of my own, but that Christ's righteousness is credited to me because of my believing God... just like father Abraham and all his descendants who are, like me, in Christ. So, I say, along with Paul:

• "...what becomes of (my) boasting? It is excluded..."

• “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

• "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant..."

• "...far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

• "...by grace (I) have been saved through faith. And this is not (my) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that (I) may (not) boast."

You have no idea what you're talking about and why people follow this kind of reasoning is due to credulity.

Ah, accusing me of gullibility... LOL! I do quote Simon and Garfunkel from time to time. You know the song: "...still a man "hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." That's true, and not necessarily a criticism. The question is whether or not the man ever thoughtfully (and prayerfully) considered "the rest" in the first place. I can tell you I certainly have. Yes, I know well the error-prone narrative of the Watchtower Society. Gullible or credulous I most certainly am not.

You also said, "Well, I have already been declared righteous -- justified -- by God the Father" which makes you arrogant...

Actually, because I know how undeserving I am, it fills me with humility and gratitude toward the triune Jehovah, and causes me to worship Him all the more, serving and loving Him, first and foremost, but also my fellow man. and you are "predisposed to manufacturing one to suit your own narrative".

Sad....such an opinion of ones self. Self-righteous I believe the term is.

2timothy316, if one recognizes no righteousness in and of himself as I do, how can that be cast as self-righteousness of any degree whatsoever? I do get, however, how that can come across as self-righteousness, but nobody can really control the perception of others.

There is nothing to discuss with such a person that is already declared righteous.

I understand. But again, the righteousness that I have is not my own, and surely not declared by me.

Though the Bible doesn't support your claim.

Well, yes it does. But I understand your position. You probably will not believe it, but it fills me with compassion for you.

So high on that pedestal...looking down on the rest of us.

Yeah... not the case.

However after all you said, you still lack a convincing answer...

Maybe the Holy Spirit will change that some day. As I have said many times, my job is merely to proclaim.

...all I see is delusions of glory on yourself. Sickening.

Understood. That's too bad. Your anger and bitterness (and lack of grace) are palpable, but I surely can't do anything about that, of course. Grace and peace to you.

[onewithhim]

(1)

Trinitarian polytheism:

Father = God
Son = God
H.S. = God

Three Gods.

(3) No, this means more like:

GOD=
Father
Son
Holy Spirit

ONE GOD

NOTE: I would AGREE With you that the way you
spelled it out above as
(1)
"Father = God
Son = God
H.S. = God
Three Gods."
Is incorrect, confusing and makes no sense to people!
Of COURSE this is wrong.

I have had long and extended conversations with people about this, and any trinitarian will say that yes, Jesus is God. They also say that yes, the Father is God. And yes, the Holy Spirit is God. Count them. How many Gods are there according to them? You are right, it does not make sense. Jesus cannot BE God and also be God's Son. It's one or the other, and he himself said that it is ONLY the Father that is God. I will go along with Jesus on that.

.

[PinSeeker]

I have had long and extended conversations with people about this, and any trinitarian will say that yes, Jesus is God. They also say that yes, the Father is God. And yes, the Holy Spirit is God. Count them. How many Gods are there according to them?

One. Existing in three distinct Persons. You are conflating two different things (essence and personhood). That's what Jehovah's Witnesses will not allow themselves to get past.

Jesus cannot BE God and also be God's Son.

But He can. And is. Are water, ice, and water vapor three different chemical compounds to you, onewithhim? I mean, water, ice, water vapor... one, two, three... I can count them, right? But no, as far as I know, they are each made up the exact same combination of elements and therefore one and the same compound, but existing in different states (liquid, solid, and gas, respectively). I'm sure you understand that. So how is the triune nature of God so hard for you to understand again? It's not, really. Yes, water, ice, and water vapor cannot all exist at the same time in the same place under the same conditions; that's where the analogy breaks down -- and it's quite silly to liken a mere chemical compound to an infinite God... -- but the point is still the same. It only "doesn't make sense" if you have already decided that you don't want it to make sense, but it does in fact make perfect sense.

It's one or the other, and he himself said that it is ONLY the Father that is God. I will go along with Jesus on that.

Well the issue is the same as we've been talking about: Jesus said something quite different that what you think.,, or what you want to think, anyway.

Grace and peace to you.

[2timothy316]

...all I see is delusions of glory on yourself. Sickening.

Understood. That's too bad. Your anger and bitterness (and lack of grace) are palpable, but I surely can't do anything about that, of course. Grace and peace to you.

LOL grace, your use of that word lets me know you have no idea what it means. It's like a listening to a parrot that just repeats something not understanding what it is saying. There is no heartfelt feeling behind it, just words they heard somewhere else and just repeat to sound righteous. I am willing to guess that you say the "Lords prayer" over and over. Yet have no idea what it means. In that prayer you ask "Hollowed by thy name". Yet with your trinity doctrine you do the exact opposite. The trinity doctrine buries and obscures it. And I'm not angered I'm sickened. My stomach turns that Satan has done such a good job of making people so full of themselves as to declare themselves righteous. Something that even Jesus didn't do. It also turns my stomach that you can grasp that God's glory on a person is not giving that person God's own glory. However, refuse to grasp that same principle applies to Jesus Christ. In fact the Bible says that Jesus didn't seek God's glory. "Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God." But do you accept this? No. And it sickens me that the Devil has done so well to mislead people into seizing God's glory by declaring themselves righteous. "But I surely can't do anything about that, of course." Especially when the person believes their doctrine more holy than the Bible.

[2timothy316]

Ah you mean like the what the Nisan counsel did in the 3rd century, which as been past down for centuries and now what they decreed dominates your narrative and you follow without question, and if you don't agree with it....well you're in trouble with your church right?

No, quite wrong.

Actually I'm quite right. The Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges, "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together." and that the trinity doctrine comes from the Athanasian Creed. Which states, "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." These are facts and this is the narrative that you have accepted.

My narrative doesn't come from the creed of some council but from the Bible where it says that Jesus is not equal to God. (Philippians 2:5-6) Therefore I view the Athanasian Creed as impossible to reconcile with the Bible and thus the doctrine is false.

So we have one that is scriptural and one that is not. We have made our choices.

It's interesting that I have met quite a few people that claimed they believed in the trinity. Then I read them the Athanasian Creed and they admitted that they had no idea that was what they were agreeing to and without even reading the Bible knew the doctrine was wrong. Then I read to them Philippians 2:5, 6 and they immediately discard the trinity doctrine. Sometimes God's Word gets through to people, but sadly sometimes it doesn't.