Does Hell Exist?

[Data]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #270]

Q: Is God okay with seeing anyone being tortured for an unspecified time - but with a way out eventually?

No, He is not ok with that either. The whole idea is foreign to God's personality and doesn't jive with his attributes (love, mercy, wisdom, power and compassion).

Then why did he create this planet in this universe and put us here to experience it - torture and all?

And why do you think love, mercy, wisdom, power and compassion are not also a part of the torturous experience we all have from time to unspecified time?

Why do folk think the two are incompatible?

[Capbook]

That billboard is misleading. A fiery hell does not exist, and "Hell" means mankind's grave. God would not want to see anyone being tortured forever with no way out. The "lake of fire" in Revelation 20:15 is a symbol of the annihilation of the evil person. It is just as symbolic as the casting of death and hell into the lake of fire. (Verse 14.) How can death actually be cast anywhere? How can hell be cast into itself?

Most King James Version Bibles have in the footnote for Rev. 20:14: Hell is "Greek for Hades, or, the grave." How does one argue with that?

Death and hell being cast into the lake of fire means that death and the grave will no longer be realities. They will be eradicated forever.

How the death and hell eradicated forever?
Is it not by burning? Rev 19:20.
Is burning also still a symbol?

[Yozavan]

A 17th century hymn may be fitting here. "

• Hast thou sought sweet pardon from hell's fervent heat? Forsake thy slumber, to Christ crucified retreat. Trembled bowels, the terror is astir. Gnaw thy tongue on the morrow, or sing Jehovah pure. Devils flee Golgotha's cross; the wicked Jew of yesteryear. For the wrath of the lamb doth false Jacob fear. Relent thine iniquities, hellfire doth proclaim; repent thyself before the hellish flame".

Strange singing about this garbage in 'worship'. To me it's not what the NT taught about hell, but rather who Christians wish it upon. Very, telling.

[Capbook]

A 17th century hymn may be fitting here. "

• Hast thou sought sweet pardon from hell's fervent heat? Forsake thy slumber, to Christ crucified retreat. Trembled bowels, the terror is astir. Gnaw thy tongue on the morrow, or sing Jehovah pure. Devils flee Golgotha's cross; the wicked Jew of yesteryear. For the wrath of the lamb doth false Jacob fear. Relent thine iniquities, hellfire doth proclaim; repent thyself before the hellish flame".

Strange singing about this garbage in 'worship'. To me it's not what the NT taught about hell, but rather who Christians wish it upon. Very, telling.

So may I know what the NT taught about hell?

[Yozavan]

A 17th century hymn may be fitting here. "

• Hast thou sought sweet pardon from hell's fervent heat? Forsake thy slumber, to Christ crucified retreat. Trembled bowels, the terror is astir. Gnaw thy tongue on the morrow, or sing Jehovah pure. Devils flee Golgotha's cross; the wicked Jew of yesteryear. For the wrath of the lamb doth false Jacob fear. Relent thine iniquities, hellfire doth proclaim; repent thyself before the hellish flame".

Strange singing about this garbage in 'worship'. To me it's not what the NT taught about hell, but rather who Christians wish it upon. Very, telling.

So may I know what the NT taught about hell?

I've read several of your posts about this topic. You're clearly quite knowledge about it, so I won't bother with Bible references, unless you ask for them later. Jesus was portrayed as viewing hell as a literal place of everlasting woe. Whether for parabolic reasons or theological reasons is debatable, ie., dramatic teaching for effect, or actual hellfire de facto. Revelations is too ' trippy ' to deduce anything dogmatic. Paul is silent about it, but assumes an unpleasant judgement for unbelievers, 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9. Jude mentions ' rescuing people from the fire', but it's uncertain what he's talking about, 1:23. That's about the gist of it. Personally, i think the NT was haphazardly written, and systematic theology is doomed to multitudinous interpretations; hence a 101 Dalmatians, um denominations.

[Capbook]

A 17th century hymn may be fitting here. "

• Hast thou sought sweet pardon from hell's fervent heat? Forsake thy slumber, to Christ crucified retreat. Trembled bowels, the terror is astir. Gnaw thy tongue on the morrow, or sing Jehovah pure. Devils flee Golgotha's cross; the wicked Jew of yesteryear. For the wrath of the lamb doth false Jacob fear. Relent thine iniquities, hellfire doth proclaim; repent thyself before the hellish flame".

Strange singing about this garbage in 'worship'. To me it's not what the NT taught about hell, but rather who Christians wish it upon. Very, telling.

So may I know what the NT taught about hell?

I've read several of your posts about this topic. You're clearly quite knowledge about it, so I won't bother with Bible references, unless you ask for them later. Jesus was portrayed as viewing hell as a literal place of everlasting woe. Whether for parabolic reasons or theological reasons is debatable, ie., dramatic teaching for effect, or actual hellfire de facto. Revelations is too ' trippy ' to deduce anything dogmatic. Paul is silent about it, but assumes an unpleasant judgement for unbelievers, 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9. Jude mentions ' rescuing people from the fire', but it's uncertain what he's talking about, 1:23. That's about the gist of it. Personally, i think the NT was haphazardly written, and systematic theology is doomed to multitudinous interpretations; hence a 101 Dalmatians, um denominations.

How about Rev 20:14 lake of fire is it a symbol?
And so is Rev 19:20?

[Yozavan]

Revelation is a convoluted, allegorical swamp! I just don't think its practical to treat the book as a theological jigsaw puzzle and search for doctrinal meanings. Are you afraid of going to hell? Is that the motivation for your interest in hell, or is it simply curiosity for its own sake? Maybe study Jeremiah 19: 4-8. Jeremiah condemns people who burned children in the valley of Hinnom,'Gen Hinnom, Gehenna in later Greek, hence 'hell'. He said it would never enter God's mind to burn anyone, but he would actually get rid of Gen Hinnom by filling it with Jewish corpses during the Babylonian invasion. Thus changing its memorial from, the Gehenna of burnt offerings, where the flames of child sacrifice never seemed to stop, to the valley of slaughter, where those responsible for such atrocities, will feed the birds with their corpses. It doesn't matter that several centuries later people used this valley as a reference to an unpleasant afterlife, which their minds fabricated, not God's.

[Capbook]

Revelation is a convoluted, allegorical swamp! I just don't think its practical to treat the book as a theological jigsaw puzzle and search for doctrinal meanings. Are you afraid of going to hell? Is that the motivation for your interest in hell, or is it simply curiosity for its own sake? Maybe study Jeremiah 19: 4-8. Jeremiah condemns people who burned children in the valley of Hinnom,'Gen Hinnom, Gehenna in later Greek, hence 'hell'. He said it would never enter God's mind to burn anyone, but he would actually get rid of Gen Hinnom by filling it with Jewish corpses during the Babylonian invasion. Thus changing its memorial from, the Gehenna of burnt offerings, where the flames of child sacrifice never seemed to stop, to the valley of slaughter, where those responsible for such atrocities, will feed the birds with their corpses. It doesn't matter that several centuries later people used this valley as a reference to an unpleasant afterlife, which their minds fabricated, not God's.

You did not answer my questions.

[Yozavan]

I changed my answer, because I don't understand this book

[onewithhim]

That billboard is misleading. A fiery hell does not exist, and "Hell" means mankind's grave. God would not want to see anyone being tortured forever with no way out. The "lake of fire" in Revelation 20:15 is a symbol of the annihilation of the evil person. It is just as symbolic as the casting of death and hell into the lake of fire. (Verse 14.) How can death actually be cast anywhere? How can hell be cast into itself?

Most King James Version Bibles have in the footnote for Rev. 20:14: Hell is "Greek for Hades, or, the grave." How does one argue with that?

Death and hell being cast into the lake of fire means that death and the grave will no longer be realities. They will be eradicated forever.

How the death and hell eradicated forever?
Is it not by burning? Rev 19:20.
Is burning also still a symbol?

Yes it is. Burning is a symbol of complete destruction. Tell me, according to your thinking, how can death and hell be thrown anywhere? Can you pick up death and throw it?