Mark's Galilean Primacy

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Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #1

Post by Yozavan »

Introduction: Was Galilee the intended epicenter of the Church?

Our oldest gospel anticipates a Galilean resurrection, Mark 16:1-8. I say anticipate, because an actual resurrection doesn't occur in our text. Verses 9-20 are considered a pious addendum.

Considerations for debate: Did Mark consider Galilee the epicenter of the Church via the resurrection?

Premise: Matthew and Mark have a Galilean resurrection, and by implication a Galilean epicenter for the Church . Luke has a Jerusalem resurrection, and by implication a Jerusalem epicenter for the Church.
A Jerusalem-till-Rome narrative is in Acts, where the baton is passed for the spiritual capital ( Historically so ).


Church of Antioch: Matthew has no reservations following Mark's Galilean resurrection, 28:7,16, and even casts shade on Jerusalem as the place where truth is despised, at the closure of his book, 28:11-15. Matthew seems to nod to the Church of Antioch at the beginning of Jesus's ministry, 4:24! Very telling, since Acts portays Antioch as being founded independently from Jerusalem's apostolic efforts, and the birthplace of the scornful word "Christian," 11:19-26. Its noteworthy that Antioch was where Judaism needed to be settled years later, Acts 15:1-34.

A Curious Jesus: Its plain to me that Matthew and Luke use Mark's gospel. (To each their own on the Synoptic Problem) Its equally plain that Romans to Revelation have no interest in the historical Jesus, only the heavenly Jesus. There's absolutely no interest in quoting Jesus to settle religious disputes, just theological proclamations and mystical interpretations of the Septuagint Old Testament. ( The exceptions are James, which no doubt uses the Sermon on the Mount for the layout of his book. 2 Peter 1:16, which reads like pious nostalgia of the transfiguration, and Jesus's " good confession before Pilate, " 1 Timothy 6:13. )

Conclusion: Was Mark actually preserving a Galilean epicenter and their particular Jesus? The Ebionites, ( Evyonim in Hebrew, the poor, destitute ) used Galilee as their epicenter, and the Hebrew Old Testament along with Matthew and James. They rejected the Septuagint, and the rest of the NT. Sources: Irenaeus, Origen, Eusebius. The Evyonim may well be " the poor " Peter asked Paul to remember, Galatians 2:10. Notice Paul's supposedly large financial offering he collected from gentile churches, Romans 15:22-33, 2 Corinthians 8:1-24, never actually got delivered, Acts 21:15-36. Also notice Paul was set up by James to be arrested! Factions are cut-throat. ( Go to the Temple brudda. Angry mob waiting :P )

Personal Note: The Evyonim were too poor to travel around spreading their message. They lived a life of poverty and austere asceticism, and seemed content to hunker down in Galilee waiting for the apocalypse. They seem to be as close to the historical Jesus as we can get, or at least the first sect that was a direct by-product of his.

Historical Jesus: I realize calling Jesus a historical person, is becoming increasingly contested among academics. Jesus may have been a mystic invention. Jewish rabbinical folklore often used mystic inventions, whereby fictitious people are used for teaching tools. The Talmud exhibits this out the ying yang! This would certainly explain gnosticism's obsession with him later on. I'm entirely open to this possibility.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #21

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:52 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:48 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:20 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Certainly:

The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



If there are any expressions or sentences you have difficulty understandibg please just quote them back to me and I will try and rephrase in simpler terms.
Sorry sir, but I simply cannot understand what you're attempting to communicate. You're saying Mark's narrative leaves Jesus dead?

No. Let me try and make it simpler for you...

A resurrection biblically is when a dead person comes back to life. There are several passages in the bible that depict the moment when dead people comes back to life. In the case of Jesus there is no description of that precise moment. All we have are reports of people meeting him after the event.

Are you with me so far? Do you understand the difference between: " I saw Jesus alive again : and "I saw Jesus come back to life"?

Now, the bible reports people saying they saw Jesus alive (again) after his execution. And this at various locations.

Is any of the above unclear to you?
Sorry sir, are you attempting to communicate something pertinent to my debate: Mark's Galilean Primacy?

Yes.

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:52 pmWhat are you trying to communicate?
That the reports of Jesus sitings in Galilee do not equate to his being resurrected in Galilee.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #22

Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:10 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:52 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:48 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:24 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:20 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:15 pm
Sorry, I don't understand what you're discussing. Could you elaborate?
Certainly:

The gospel of Mark does not have Jesus resurrection take place in Galilee.

None of the Gospels depict the actual resurrection but have a risen Christ appear in various locations at various times including in Galilee.

The significance of these sitings is, of course debatable.



If there are any expressions or sentences you have difficulty understandibg please just quote them back to me and I will try and rephrase in simpler terms.
Sorry sir, but I simply cannot understand what you're attempting to communicate. You're saying Mark's narrative leaves Jesus dead?

No. Let me try and make it simpler for you...

A resurrection biblically is when a dead person comes back to life. There are several passages in the bible that depict the moment when dead people comes back to life. In the case of Jesus there is no description of that precise moment. All we have are reports of people meeting him after the event.

Are you with me so far? Do you understand the difference between: " I saw Jesus alive again : and "I saw Jesus come back to life"?

Now, the bible reports people saying they saw Jesus alive (again) after his execution. And this at various locations.

Is any of the above unclear to you?
Sorry sir, are you attempting to communicate something pertinent to my debate: Mark's Galilean Primacy?

Yes.

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 9:52 pmWhat are you trying to communicate?
That the reports of Jesus sitings in Galilee do not equate to his being resurrected in Galilee.
What does this have to do with Mark 16:7?


What are you attempting to say?
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #23

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:20 pm
What does this have to do with Mark 16:7?
MARK 16:7 NIV

But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'”

Mark 16:7 supports the idea that a risen Christ was reportedly seen in Galilee. Not however that he was resurrected in Galilee.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #24

Post by Yozavan »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:38 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:20 pm
What does this have to do with Mark 16:7?
MARK 16:7 NIV

But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'”

Mark 16:7 supports the idea that a risen Christ was reportedly seen in Galilee. Not however that he was resurrected in Galilee.
" Reportedly seen ," so you doubt he was actually seen? Interesting!
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 10:41 pm " Reportedly seen ," so you doubt he was actually seen? Interesting!
I do not believe I was personally mentioned in the OP so your speculating as to whether I doubt the biblical narrative myself is off topic and irrelevant.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #26

Post by 1213 »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 1:59 pm Why does Mark have a Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance? What was Mark's intentions for having the disciples leave Jerusalem and go back to Galilee to witness the resurrection?
Maybe because the spent time there normally. I don't think it means then that Galilee the epicenter of the Church.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 1:59 pmI was raised a Haredi Jew and studied Talmud at a yeshiva for 3 years :P . The Talmud uses fictional characters repeatedly. Its the spirit of Talmud :P. The discussion is what matters, the characters in it are almost always fictional. Fictional angels, villions, and fools. ...
Ok, interesting. How do you know that not all the characters are then fictional?

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #27

Post by The Tanager »

Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:37 pmThis is a hypothetical debate about Mark's Galilean primacy. As such it is speculative by design.
By calling this a “hypothetical” debate, are you saying there is absolutely no rational reason to believe it is true? If so, then why have it at all? If not, then it isn’t speculative by design and, therefore, needs rational reasons to back it up.

I’m not offended by any of the claims you have made; I simply disagree with them because I see no rational reason to support them. I think you give fundamentalists too little credit as well. Either that or your term narrows to a group of people that are very few in number, if there are any at all. Most fundamentalists I know aren’t offended by opposing beliefs; they simply disagree with them (some for good reasons, some for not so good reasons). And neither do they think (nor I) that the issues you’ve raised are salvation issues.

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #28

Post by Difflugia »

The Tanager wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:12 pm
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 6:05 pmI realize Christians will simply say: ok, they saw Jesus in Jerusalem, then went to Galilee and saw Jesus again, they returned to Jerusalem and Jerusalem became HQ, The End.
Well, Mark, our oldest gospel knows nothing of this!
This sounds like an argument from silence. Mark not addressing this issue doesn’t mean he knew nothing of it. Mark obviously would have known that the women went and told the other disciples (otherwise Christianity doesn’t get off the ground to where Mark is writing anything), but ends his story with the women saying nothing to anyone.
Is it "obvious?" Mark's story is Mark's story and an argument from silence cuts both ways. If Mark is in the same theological universe as Galatians 1:11-12, then we have no need of the women:

"For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."

The assumption that Mark knows details added to the story by later authors is your own addition to the text. Mark's omission of the women may very well be intended as a retroactive foreshadowing of the Pauline concept of apostleship with which Matthew and Luke disagree. If, as you claim, Mark's silence isn't properly evidence of such a theological difference between the synoptics, then neither can we properly fill Mark's silence with statements of those following him.
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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #29

Post by Yozavan »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 8:14 am
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 8:37 pmThis is a hypothetical debate about Mark's Galilean primacy. As such it is speculative by design.
By calling this a “hypothetical” debate, are you saying there is absolutely no rational reason to believe it is true? If so, then why have it at all? If not, then it isn’t speculative by design and, therefore, needs rational reasons to back it up.

I’m not offended by any of the claims you have made; I simply disagree with them because I see no rational reason to support them. I think you give fundamentalists too little credit as well. Either that or your term narrows to a group of people that are very few in number, if there are any at all. Most fundamentalists I know aren’t offended by opposing beliefs; they simply disagree with them (some for good reasons, some for not so good reasons). And neither do they think (nor I) that the issues you’ve raised are salvation issues.
I can't prove Mark intended Galilee to have any relevance at all.Yes, its a hypothetical discussion. I made this discussion for the fun of it. That's all. In school we have tons of hypothetical discussions. Its fun. I don't believe Mark haphazardly picked Galilee. I assume it had relevance to him. I'm speculating what the relevance was. Mark doesn't assign any significance to it, nonetheless I think it had significance to him. Luke obviously sees Jerusalem as the epicenter of the Church. I'm wondering if Mark felt that way about Galilee. He doesn't say what he felt about Galilee.

If you find this discussion ridiculous, so be it. Maybe it is ridiculous. I'm not a Christian. The New Testament means nothing to me. I was raised fluent in Hebrew. The only reason I'm going to WBU is to easily obtain a degree in Biblical Hebrew, so I can get a job teaching Biblical Hebrew. It'll be easy money. I'm required to take Christian courses too. I find them ridiculous, but a credit's a credit. Anyway, this is the gibberish we talk about there. I am amused with how many Christians lose their faith at WBU. I laugh hysterically whenever one abandons his pastoral ambitions and leaves school as an atheist. Me and a buddy sing, " another one bites the dust " each time. I'm not a Christian, The New Testament is a poorly written, 2nd century slob job in my opinion. Its fun to speculate how the slob job got going though.

Most of my teachers are fundamentalists. Most of my classmates too. Some are nice, some are incoherent hicks mad at the whole world. Don't matter much to me. Its fun seeing them argue over nonsense, and treat each other with contempt. Some are cool though.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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Re: Mark's Galilean Primacy

Post #30

Post by Yozavan »

1213 wrote: Tue Jul 16, 2024 5:39 am
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 1:59 pm Why does Mark have a Galilean gathering for a resurrection appearance? What was Mark's intentions for having the disciples leave Jerusalem and go back to Galilee to witness the resurrection?
Maybe because the spent time there normally. I don't think it means then that Galilee the epicenter of the Church.
Yozavan wrote: Mon Jul 15, 2024 1:59 pmI was raised a Haredi Jew and studied Talmud at a yeshiva for 3 years :P . The Talmud uses fictional characters repeatedly. Its the spirit of Talmud :P. The discussion is what matters, the characters in it are almost always fictional. Fictional angels, villions, and fools. ...
Ok, interesting. How do you know that not all the characters are then fictional?
There's as much reason to believe the rabbis were real as believing the NT characters were real. Zilch! Just a matter of faith.

I Imagine most of the rabbis were real, but their discussions contained fictional people and scenarios.
Either the Gospel works as advertised, or is fraudulent hocus-pocus!

Either Jesus is a real person who saves those who come to Him, or Christians are in bondage to legions of opposing theological factions, whereby the cross of Christ has no effect!!! 1 Corinthians 1:17,18

Is Christianity not proven false by its own claims? :(

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