#1 Jesus on hell

[Wootah]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”

Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?

[Wootah]

The punishment is what is everlasting, not the torment...

Well, both are. God condemns, because of sin, to punishment, which is everlasting. No one, much less God, torments anyone. But being in that punishment is a torment. A bit like me having to repeat the same things over and over again to the same tin assertions you keep making.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment... ( Matthew 25:46)

Exactly. And the punishment is a torment to the person who is condemned and sent away into it. This torment is eternal, because the punishment is eternal. Sure. But God surely does not torment anyone.

Grace and peace to you, myth-one.

How do you torment the dead?

If they are dead, as you mean, then you are correct the Bible is ridiculous and mockworthy to think that they can be tormented. BUT if death means something different in the Bible then you are again at odds with the Bible.

Consider this: The world, the atheist world, considers death the way you do. They think it is: The End. Why join with the world on this?

[Wootah]

When Jesus spoke the good and bad servant parable man was under the Old Testament Covenant, where the only path to everlasting life was to remain without sin.

Absolutely incorrect.

Since the first covenant contained faults, God created a second or New Testament:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

The New Testament Covenant became the effective covenant, when the testator died:

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

A testator is a person who makes a will. "A testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." Therefore, the New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away as a will when Jesus Christ died on the cross. Once the New Testament became the active will, no one could gain eternal life by remaining sinless as required under the Old Testament:

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

The only path to salvation presently is through a belief in Jesus Christ under terms of the New Testament covenant:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Myth-one thinks God creates covenants that contain faults.

How can you trust God, or his new covenant, or his teachings, if you think God creates faulty covenants?

[Tcg]

Consider this: The world, the atheist world, considers death the way you do. They think it is: The End. Why join with the world on this?

To be an atheist means one thing and one thing only, to lack belief in god/gods. Nothing in lacking belief in god/gods requires one to have a specific idea of what happens after death.


Tcg

[myth-one.com]

-- the ridiculous assertion that the physical and spiritual cannot coexist -- all that was really needed from this particular passage was/is:

• "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one."

This verse does not prove that the physical and spiritual bodies can coexist!

Paul is writing to the Christians in Corinth, and is comparing the physical bodies of dead and buried Christians with the new spiritual bodies they will be resurrected with at the Second Coming.

The Christian body that is sown like a seed, or buried is:

1. corruptible
2. dishonored
3. weak
4. and a natural body.

This is the natural body which is buried like a seed, or sown, when we die our first death.

At the resurrection, Christians are raised up with:

1. incorruptible
2. glorified
3. powerful
4. spiritual bodies

This is exactly what the above verses state!

In no way do these verses infer that the physical and spiritual bodies exist for the same person at the same time.

In fact, it states exactly the opposite. The human physical or natural body is the only natural body that Christians will ever possess. When we die our first death and are sown or buried, that body is described as a corruptible, dishonored, weak, and a natural body.

When Christian's are resurrected (raised up) to everlasting life at the second coming, we are resurrected with incorruptible, glorified, powerful, spiritual bodies. That is the only spiritual body we will ever possess.

======================================================

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (I Corinthians 15:46)

The answer to this riddle is that once one acquires a spiritual body, it cannot be taken away by anyone -- being everlasting.

Thus man is born initially with a natural body which will die.

But during that natural lifetime, man can become an heir to everlasting spiritual bodied life by qualifying under terms of the New Testament Covenant between God and mankind.

=========================================================

Via this plan, the spiritual bodied angels produced from mankind should be less likely to rebel against God.

[2timothy316]

Consider this: The world, the atheist world, considers death the way you do. They think it is: The End. Why join with the world on this?

Why should who it looks like a person is joining drive a person's beliefs? Sounds like a person that does this is more concerned with optics and not what might be true.

[Wootah]

Consider this: The world, the atheist world, considers death the way you do. They think it is: The End. Why join with the world on this?

Why should who it looks like a person is joining drive a person's beliefs? Sounds like a person that does this is more concerned with optics and not what might be true.

Maybe. But not necessarily so. I agree it is good to be wary though. I generally find agreement with the world to be a good indicator of error - don't you?

[myth-one.com]

Myth-one thinks God creates covenants that contain faults.

How can you trust God, or his new covenant, or his teachings, if you think God creates faulty covenants?

Myth-one thinks God creates covenants that contain faults, because that is exactly what God inspired to be written in the scriptures:

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. (Hebrews 8:6-7)

The fault was with man, not God.

And the fault was that no man had ever qualified as an heir to everlasting life under that covenant because the wages of sin was death, and all men who had ever lived had sinned!

[onewithhim]

Wait wait wait a minute! Are eternal torment fanatics saying that the people that are tormented eternally don't remember their former life as a human?!

Um, well, whatever you want to call those who, you know, know annihilation is never intimated anywhere in the Bible...

Annihilation is quite obvious in the Scriptures. It is death that really isn't death that is not intimated. When the Bible says "death" it means no life. You would argue with that. When it says "destroyed" you don't think it means what it clearly is intimating---that the person is no longer a living, functioning person. It is understood to be a word that describes obliteration. How can it mean that a person is not really destroyed but lives on in torment? The word "torment" has been explained, and it merely means an end to the person's ability to do anything. Death will truly take care of that.

So I think we have shown that "death" and "destruction" do, in fact, intimate annihilation. If you've been paying attention.

[Bust Nak]

But at least you own up to it; good for you, although, it's surely not a good thing to have done in and of itself. Dishonest, I think the kids call it these days...

Yes, your inability to understand a very simple statement of mine is a bit funny (in a couple of different ways)...

Well, you sound smart, anyway

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[2timothy316]

Consider this: The world, the atheist world, considers death the way you do. They think it is: The End. Why join with the world on this?

Why should who it looks like a person is joining drive a person's beliefs? Sounds like a person that does this is more concerned with optics and not what might be true.

Maybe. But not necessarily so. I agree it is good to be wary though. I generally find agreement with the world to be a good indicator of error - don't you?

Not at all. I have never thought of large groups I'd be agreeing with when seeking truth.
Example: I do not want to be associated with evangelicals. However, I do believe that Jesus Christ is the reigning king in Heaven right this very moment. Ask an evangelical and they will agree with that statement as well. Other than that agreement I share nearly no other agreement with them.

Bottom line, I don't care if I share one, two, three or more beliefs with one particular group. The Bible says that God doesn't judge people by the group they agree with or who agrees with them. People must worship Him in truth. I also don't fear men who would label me with a certain group. I fear the Almighty God Jehovah.
"God is not partial, but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him." - Acts 10:34,35.
"God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” - John 4:24
"Trembling at men is a snare, But the one trusting in Jehovah will be protected." - Proverbs 29:25

So if the Bible, which is where I get my truth says, that when people die they are truly dead and that is what atheist believe, fine I don't care.
Also if the truth is that Jesus is also the reigning king in Heaven right now and that is what evangelicals believe, I don't care about that either.
If a person wants to try and lump me into one of these groups fine, I will deny it but I will not change my beliefs in fear of a label men put on me.