Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity Part 1

[SiNcE_1985]

.

No excuses, Jesus is God.

We are gonna deal with these Trinity-Proof texts, one by one....using Jehovah's Witnesses (JW's) own New World's Translation, while I use the New King James Version (NKJV)...and we are gonna expose their faulty NWT, as needed.

For this thread, we will examine the following three books and verses..

Isa 40:3 – Mark 1:1-8 – Malachi 3:1

Lets begin with Isa 40:3..

Isa 40:3
NKJV Isa 40:3 ”The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.
NWT Isa 40:3 A voice of one calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up* the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God.

Now, as you can see, in comparison, both the NKJV and the NWT reads the same.

It is commanded that a clear path is made for God (Lord, Jehovah), because he is coming through!!

Ok, now, lets look at Malachi 3:1..

NKJV Mal 3:1 “Behold, I send My messenger, And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,” Says the Lord of hosts.

NWT Mal 3:1  “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he will clear up* a way before me. And suddenly the true Lord, whom you are seeking, will come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant will come, in whom you take delight. Look! He will certainly come,” says Jehovah of armies.

Virtually the same message, the Lord is coming...and the path is being cleared for him.

The significance? This is a prophecy of the coming of Jesus....and this messenger who clears the path for him, is John the Baptist.

How do we know?

Because, in Mark 1:1-8...

1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in [a]the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
3 “The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’ ”

4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 7 And he preached, saying, “There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

The implication is simple, Jesus is God.

Even in JW's own NWT Bible, it is said that the path (Isa 40:3) is being made clear for Jehovah/God.

The author of Mark connects the subject of the cleared path in the book of Isaiah (who is identified as Jehovah/God), to the subject of the path in his own book (who is identified as Jesus).

This is irrefutable evidence of the fact that; Jesus is God.

Anyone who has beef with this, let me know.

[Capbook]

[Replying to face2face in post #166]


Jehovah is the true living God.

Is the Latinized name you've said more than 7,000 originally mentioned in the Bible?

[face2face]

Do you think a God need to be redeemed? Show me a Bible verse that says that.
It is us that need to be redeemed through Jesus blood shed on Calvary, to forgive our trespasses and hope of eternal life in faith.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace.

In the days of his (Jesus) flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him (Jesus) from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

I'll ask you again!

What, exactly, did Jesus need to be redeemed from?

F2F

Is that how you interpret the verse?
Haven't you consulted what "redeem", in Greek "lutroo" means by Bible lexicon? I believe you just misuse the term.
What will be the ransom to be paid when the cup was passed from Jesus' prayers and supplications to save His life?

NT:3084 lutrooo, lutroo:
1. to release on receipt of ransom:
2. to redeem, liberate by payment of ransom
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

To save his life from what?

You accept now that you misused the term "redeem"? Next don't misuse terms, it would be proper for us to consult Bible lexicons once in a while.
To save Jesus' life from the separation of the Father's protection.

You don't appear to be very perceptive Capbook.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12

Who secured eternal redemption?

How was it secured?

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

The moment you say "Jesus did not need saving or that he did not need redemption", you immediately lose your redemption.

Jesus was either the firstfruits from the dead, or he was not.

So your original statement of God not needing to be redeemed was actually correct because Jesus is not God.

Well done!

So what have you learned so far:

Jesus was born into the fallen line of man and condemned to death like you - only through obedience could he be saved and redeemed to God.

F2F

[Capbook]

You don't appear to be very perceptive Capbook.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12

Now, I know, again you quote this text from paraphrase translation. It would misled you. It is not Jesus that need redemption. It is the redemption of man attributed to the blood of Christ. Having obtained eternal redemption for us, that is, by the shedding of His blood. On the meaning of the word "redemption," see Gal 3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for His people is eternal. Read and analyze the verses below;

Heb 9:12
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB
Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"
NASB

Who secured eternal redemption?

Jesus secures eternal redemption for us. See Heb 9:12 and Gal 3:13 above.

How was it secured?

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, read my posted verses from word for word translation.

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

I am sorry you are really misled.

The moment you say "Jesus did not need saving or that he did not need redemption", you immediately lose your redemption.

I am really sorry that is eisegesis.

Jesus was either the firstfruits from the dead, or he was not.

So your original statement of God not needing to be redeemed was actually correct because Jesus is not God.

Where is the verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"

Well done!

So what have you learned so far:

I learned to know your eisegesis.

Jesus was born into the fallen line of man and condemned to death like you - only through obedience could he be saved and redeemed to God. F2F

How far it is to the truth. It is us are to be saved not Jesus, He is from heaven, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

[face2face]

You don't appear to be very perceptive Capbook.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12

Now, I know, again you quote this text from paraphrase translation. It would misled you. It is not Jesus that need redemption. It is the redemption of man attributed to the blood of Christ. Having obtained eternal redemption for us, that is, by the shedding of His blood. On the meaning of the word "redemption," see Gal 3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for His people is eternal. Read and analyze the verses below;

Heb 9:12
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB
Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"
NASB

Who secured eternal redemption?

Jesus secures eternal redemption for us. See Heb 9:12 and Gal 3:13 above.

How was it secured?

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, read my posted verses from word for word translation.

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

I am sorry you are really misled.

The moment you say "Jesus did not need saving or that he did not need redemption", you immediately lose your redemption.

I am really sorry that is eisegesis.

Jesus was either the firstfruits from the dead, or he was not.

So your original statement of God not needing to be redeemed was actually correct because Jesus is not God.

Where is the verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"

Well done!

So what have you learned so far:

I learned to know your eisegesis.

Jesus was born into the fallen line of man and condemned to death like you - only through obedience could he be saved and redeemed to God. F2F

How far it is to the truth. It is us are to be saved not Jesus, He is from heaven, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

You are in a spot of bother Capbook.

You acknowledge that Jesus was human, though not fully human. You recognize that he needed God???, yet you believe he didn’t need saving. You accept that he obtained eternal redemption, but not for himself.

You believe God cannot be cursed—yet Scripture says Jesus was cursed when he hung on the tree. I could say more, but the truth is, the Lord Jesus Christ you believe in is not the one revealed in Scripture.

It was you who said "God does not need redeeming" and yet you can clearly see the Lord did!

By way of avoiding the answer all you could provide was "I am sorry you are really misled"

Let's open this subject up some more, shall we?

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Why was his blood so important to God?

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

I find it interesting to see how you navigate around these well-known verses, almost as if you're encountering them for the first time.

F2f

[Capbook]

You don't appear to be very perceptive Capbook.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12

Now, I know, again you quote this text from paraphrase translation. It would misled you. It is not Jesus that need redemption. It is the redemption of man attributed to the blood of Christ. Having obtained eternal redemption for us, that is, by the shedding of His blood. On the meaning of the word "redemption," see Gal 3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for His people is eternal. Read and analyze the verses below;

Heb 9:12
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB
Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"
NASB

Who secured eternal redemption?

Jesus secures eternal redemption for us. See Heb 9:12 and Gal 3:13 above.

How was it secured?

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, read my posted verses from word for word translation.

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

I am sorry you are really misled.

The moment you say "Jesus did not need saving or that he did not need redemption", you immediately lose your redemption.

I am really sorry that is eisegesis.

Jesus was either the firstfruits from the dead, or he was not.

So your original statement of God not needing to be redeemed was actually correct because Jesus is not God.

Where is the verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"

Well done!

So what have you learned so far:

I learned to know your eisegesis.

Jesus was born into the fallen line of man and condemned to death like you - only through obedience could he be saved and redeemed to God. F2F

How far it is to the truth. It is us are to be saved not Jesus, He is from heaven, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

You are in a spot of bother Capbook.

You acknowledge that Jesus was human, though not fully human. You recognize that he needed God???, yet you believe he didn’t need saving. You accept that he obtained eternal redemption, but not for himself.

You believe God cannot be cursed—yet Scripture says Jesus was cursed when he hung on the tree. I could say more, but the truth is, the Lord Jesus Christ you believe in is not the one revealed in Scripture.

It was you who said "God does not need redeeming" and yet you can clearly see the Lord did!

By way of avoiding the answer all you could provide was "I am sorry you are really misled"

Let's open this subject up some more, shall we?

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Why was his blood so important to God?

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

I find it interesting to see how you navigate around these well-known verses, almost as if you're encountering them for the first time.

F2f

Ok, to settle this all, I am requesting you, just one verse that says Jesus needs salvation?

[servant1]

[Replying to Capbook in post #171]


Jesus himself has promised to keep on making his Fathers name known( John 17:26)--Not by walking up to you and telling you but through his real religion and true followers who believe him. And actually teach all he taught to the flock.

[face2face]

You don't appear to be very perceptive Capbook.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12

Now, I know, again you quote this text from paraphrase translation. It would misled you. It is not Jesus that need redemption. It is the redemption of man attributed to the blood of Christ. Having obtained eternal redemption for us, that is, by the shedding of His blood. On the meaning of the word "redemption," see Gal 3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for His people is eternal. Read and analyze the verses below;

Heb 9:12
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB
Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"
NASB

Who secured eternal redemption?

Jesus secures eternal redemption for us. See Heb 9:12 and Gal 3:13 above.

How was it secured?

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, read my posted verses from word for word translation.

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

I am sorry you are really misled.

The moment you say "Jesus did not need saving or that he did not need redemption", you immediately lose your redemption.

I am really sorry that is eisegesis.

Jesus was either the firstfruits from the dead, or he was not.

So your original statement of God not needing to be redeemed was actually correct because Jesus is not God.

Where is the verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"

Well done!

So what have you learned so far:

I learned to know your eisegesis.

Jesus was born into the fallen line of man and condemned to death like you - only through obedience could he be saved and redeemed to God. F2F

How far it is to the truth. It is us are to be saved not Jesus, He is from heaven, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

You are in a spot of bother Capbook.

You acknowledge that Jesus was human, though not fully human. You recognize that he needed God???, yet you believe he didn’t need saving. You accept that he obtained eternal redemption, but not for himself.

You believe God cannot be cursed—yet Scripture says Jesus was cursed when he hung on the tree. I could say more, but the truth is, the Lord Jesus Christ you believe in is not the one revealed in Scripture.

It was you who said "God does not need redeeming" and yet you can clearly see the Lord did!

By way of avoiding the answer all you could provide was "I am sorry you are really misled"

Let's open this subject up some more, shall we?

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Why was his blood so important to God?

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

I find it interesting to see how you navigate around these well-known verses, almost as if you're encountering them for the first time.

F2f

Ok, to settle this all, I am requesting you, just one verse that says Jesus needs salvation?

Here are two very clear quotes - many more if you need them!

Jesus was held under the dominion of death

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Jesus knew this which is why he prayed to his Father to save him from death

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Capbook, your theology is grounded in human philosophy, which is why your view of Scripture is incomplete and why you continually encounter contradictions.

F2F

[face2face]

Let's keep these questions here so they are not overlooked:

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Answer: No!

Why was his blood so important to God?

Answer: it speaks to a life given in obedience

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

Answer: Because within his blood was the victory over sin's flesh - the blood declared the righteousness of God and the weakness of the flesh

Capbook’s portrayal of God appears weak—He did not achieve victory through the second Adam but instead had to "pretend" to be a man while retaining His full divinity. In contrast, the One True God empowered His Son to overcome sin in the flesh, and through that, secured a righteous and genuine victory—just as Scripture declares: “But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 15:57)

The problem for Capbook is they don't know "how" God achieved that Victory

F2F

[face2face]

[Replying to Capbook in post #170]

No, I'm not a JW

[Capbook]

You don't appear to be very perceptive Capbook.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. Hebrews 9:12

Now, I know, again you quote this text from paraphrase translation. It would misled you. It is not Jesus that need redemption. It is the redemption of man attributed to the blood of Christ. Having obtained eternal redemption for us, that is, by the shedding of His blood. On the meaning of the word "redemption," see Gal 3:13. The redemption which the Lord Jesus effected for His people is eternal. Read and analyze the verses below;

Heb 9:12
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
NASB
Gal 3:13
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us — for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"
NASB

Who secured eternal redemption?

Jesus secures eternal redemption for us. See Heb 9:12 and Gal 3:13 above.

How was it secured?

We are redeemed by the blood of Jesus, read my posted verses from word for word translation.

What did Jesus need redeeming from?

I am sorry you are really misled.

The moment you say "Jesus did not need saving or that he did not need redemption", you immediately lose your redemption.

I am really sorry that is eisegesis.

Jesus was either the firstfruits from the dead, or he was not.

So your original statement of God not needing to be redeemed was actually correct because Jesus is not God.

Where is the verse that says, "Jesus is not God?"

Well done!

So what have you learned so far:

I learned to know your eisegesis.

Jesus was born into the fallen line of man and condemned to death like you - only through obedience could he be saved and redeemed to God. F2F

How far it is to the truth. It is us are to be saved not Jesus, He is from heaven, from eternity. (Micah 5:2)

You are in a spot of bother Capbook.

You acknowledge that Jesus was human, though not fully human. You recognize that he needed God???, yet you believe he didn’t need saving. You accept that he obtained eternal redemption, but not for himself.

You believe God cannot be cursed—yet Scripture says Jesus was cursed when he hung on the tree. I could say more, but the truth is, the Lord Jesus Christ you believe in is not the one revealed in Scripture.

It was you who said "God does not need redeeming" and yet you can clearly see the Lord did!

By way of avoiding the answer all you could provide was "I am sorry you are really misled"

Let's open this subject up some more, shall we?

Could Jesus ascend Heaven without the shedding of his blood?

Why was his blood so important to God?

Why was Jesus' blood an acceptable offering to God?

I find it interesting to see how you navigate around these well-known verses, almost as if you're encountering them for the first time.

F2f

Ok, to settle this all, I am requesting you, just one verse that says Jesus needs salvation?

Here are two very clear quotes - many more if you need them!

Jesus was held under the dominion of death

We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

Jesus knew this which is why he prayed to his Father to save him from death

In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him (God) who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Hebrews 5:7

Capbook, your theology is grounded in human philosophy, which is why your view of Scripture is incomplete and why you continually encounter contradictions.

F2F

No, I need explicit verse that says Jesus needs salvation. On the contrary verses below will prove your eisegesis.
Have forgotten Jesus words, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.
Maybe it's your preconceived belief that made us, though we have eyes but cannot see. Below are purely from literal word for word Bible translations that aims to maintain the highest accuracy to the original Greek.

1 Thess 5:9
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
NASB

2 Tim 2:10
10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
NASB

2 Tim 3:15-16
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
NASB

Acts 4:12
2 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."
NASB