Did Christ have free will?

[brianbbs67]

Did Jesus/Yeshua/whateverhisname have free will. We see him quote" the son can only do as the father has instructed". Or was he so devoted to the father it never was an issue?

So, was he locked into the doctrine? Or could he act of his will? I can see examples of both. What do you all see?

[ttruscott]

GOD created everybody.

Yes, from an absolute point of view.

From a relative point of view, he is still creating us moment by moment.

From my point of view, HE finished creation and rested.

Gen 2:2: kalah: Definition
to be complete, at an end, finished, accomplished, or spent

The only reason to not accept this at face value is the theology that HE is still creating...and at face value the idea HE finished all HIS works of creation is also supported by the fact HE rested, ceased from HIS creative labours. I would ask you now to quote one other verse that supports the idea that we were not created then and are still being created new...

Then they re-created their characters as evil by rebelling against GOD by their free will.

That is unscriptural:

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21)

Being unscriptural only means that you do not interpret any scripture this way. Well, I have a verse that says flat out HIS creation was finished. And I ask you to find a verse that says it was not. I contend that Rom 9:21 refers to HIS predetermining our lives, not our fates because your interpretation supports the blasphemy that HE creates evil people. So if you are flying a flag of the blasphemy that the GOD of loving righteousness who has no wickedness in HIM, who is light with no darkness in HIM, creates evil by any means at all, for me to salute, you will be disappointed.

[2timothy316]

Then they re-created their characters as evil by rebelling against GOD by their free will.

EBA wrote: That is unscriptural:

It is scriptural in my Bible. I am starting to think these claims of something being unscriptural is just a knee jerk reaction seeing as they have no defense.

"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.� For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death. Do not be misled, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, for it comes down from the Father of the celestial lights," James 1:13-17

So say that people don't reform themselves to evil is saying that James 1:13-17 is a lie. To say a person is evil because of God means that every that comes from God is not good or perfect. No scripture is more clear than the one found in James that we have do reform ourselves and Jehovah God reforms no one. According the Bible if God reforms anyone it is to Good and by that person's choice.

The scripture warns against being misled. Who is it that is being misled? The person that thinks that God forces evil desires on to people or the person that thinks only good gifts and perfect presents come from God? Yet even perfect gits He doesn't force on people. According to James if God really did force His will on people without choice then we'd all be good and perfect people...drones but good and perfect because that's the only thing God can hand out!

Hebrews 2:18 - "For in that he himself has suffered when being put to the test, he is able to come to the aid of those who are being put to the test."

If God makes some turn to evil why does He send someone to our aid when under test? Who in the world puts evil on someone but then gives them aid? This makes zero sense. It would be like cutting someone while stitching them up right afterward. Just to make someone suffer? That's blasphemy to the scriptures to say that God wants us to suffer.

[ttruscott]

By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent. (Job 26:13)

And is Satan that serpent? Again, yes Satan is that serpent:

Job 26:13 By his breath the skies became fair; his hand pierced the gliding serpent. pierced: Strong's Concordance: chalal: pierce, not formed

Most commentaries refer this dragon to the garnishing of the heavens, that is, to making the patterns in the sky with stars:

(13) The crooked serpent.--By this expression is doubtless meant the forked lightning-flash, though it is difficult to determine whether any, or what mythological ideas may underlie the expression, or whether it is anything more than a figure derived from the natural world, which suggested the similitude of the flying serpent. Others understand by it the constellation of the Northern Dragon, to whose influence storms were ascribed.

with which many agree.

HE created the person who would become the serpent by his own free will, not evil by HIS creation.

And that is unscriptural as well:

Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. (Isa 54:16)

The image is of the blacksmith creating a sword or a hammer for the work of destruction. This is fulfilled by any and every conquering king such as Tiglath-Pileser, Sargon, Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus (The Pulpit Commentary).

"Some understand this also of the devil, who is by way of eminence the waster of mankind; others of tyrannical princes; I should choose to interpret it of the Romish antichrist, that waster and destroyer of the souls of men, and of the antichristian states that destroy the earth, and shall be destroyed themselves; or of the Turk, the locust, whose king is called Apollyon and Abaddon, which signifies a waster and a destroyer, Revelation 11:18.

These are said to be "created" by the Lord, not only because they are his creatures, the work of his hands, but because they are raised up by his providence, according to his secret purpose, as Pharaoh was, to show his power in them; and are permitted by him to continue for awhile to fulfil his will, being entirely dependent upon him, and subject to his influence, direction, and overruling providence; and therefore his people had no reason to be afraid of them."

So while you contend that their evil was a product of their creation and their lives were raised up to destroy HIS wayward people, I contend that they were created innocent and only by a free will decison to rebel became evil and THEN were given lives on earth as human to be raised up for HIS judgemental purposes.

The speculation HE created evil people whether Satan or Cyrus or Pharaoh is a blasphemy while my contention that HE created us all equally ingenuously innocent but some chose to be eternally evil and were then used by HIM carries no disrespect or dispute of HIS character in the least. The worst that can be said for the idea is that it doesn't conform to your interpretation of some scriptures. It is obvious that if the idea of HIS righteous, loving holiness is kept in mind fully with no deviation allowed, no thought of HIS creating any evil will be found. I know books of thousands of pages of theo-babble have been written to dance around HIS righteous holiness but all they prove is that some people know some scripture and some theology but they do not know GOD at all.

1 John 2:16 For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world. To create us with a sin nature means that all these things comes from our nature as HE created it. This verse denies that very openly.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts--murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. Is 'heart' another name for our created 'human nature' or 'sinful nature' and not our self chosen nature? Then you know what I think...such an interpretation is blasphemy.

Gal 5:16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. The flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other, they are in conflict! One cannot produce the other as a fulfillment for any purpose whatsoever.

How is it reasonable to think GOD creates that with which HE is in conflict? GOD's Kingdom is not divided by the creation of evil as it would be IF HE created it: Luke 11:17 Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them: "Any kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and a house divided against itself will fall. in the context that Satan will not cast out demons which must extrapolate to therefore Christ would never be involved with creating evil.

IF it is blasphemous to say Jesus cast out demons by the finger of Satan, how much more to say that HE created Satan's evil and all evil in existence? And this is also in the context of 23 “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Gal 5:19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. If these things are outside of the Kingdom of God then GOD as the HIGH KING cannot nor would not (if HE could) ever create them or the impulse to do them or a nature that would inevitably lead to them! And does not the creation of evil create dissensions, factions within HIS Kingdom??? Sin suddenly creates eternal evil enemies but no dissensions or factions???

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. THESE are the things GOD creates - wherein is there any place for sin and evil to be created?

Any verse you can find to argue HE created evil is INTERPRETED WRONGLY for sectarian purposes and as such is a blasphemy against HIS Holiness and HIS good name as loving righteousness.

Peace, Ted

[2timothy316]

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21)

Being unscriptural only means that you do not interpret any scripture this way. Well, I have a verse that says flat out HIS creation was finished. And I ask you to find a verse that says it was not. I contend that Rom 9:21 refers to HIS predetermining our lives, not our fates because your interpretation supports the blasphemy that HE creates evil people. So if you are flying a flag of the blasphemy that the GOD of loving righteousness who has no wickedness in HIM, who is light with no darkness in HIM, creates evil by any means at all, for me to salute, you will be disappointed.

If I may add to this: Notice that in that verse that both types of vessels come from the same lump of clay. This means we all start the same way. Its only after molding that our 'use' comes into play. We can either mold ourselves with evil things and deeds or mold ourselves with God's good things and deeds. Who molds us is our own choice, our final use is where God makes His choice. We allow God to mold us or we don't. Note in verse 22 of that same chapter "he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction". He tolerates them He doesn't mold those that have made themselves fit for destruction.

[brianbbs67]

Yes, vessels made, that made themselves fit for destruction . So, again, choice. The Almighty has forever, we do not in this world. So, our choices bring consequences, much sooner.

[marco]

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21)

Notice that in that verse that both types of vessels come from the same lump of clay. This means we all start the same way. Its only after molding that our 'use' comes into play. We can either mold ourselves with evil things and deeds or mold ourselves with God's good things and deeds.

You are imposing too much on a simple metaphor - it doesn't have infinite applications. We may all start with the same chemicals, but people are born with different abilities and some are incapable of making choices for themselves. We must thank the careless potter.

As for choosing good or bad, we are all (except Christ) able to chose one or the other and no one chooses good exclusively, since we all make mistakes. Christ was modelled in such a way that he could follow only the path chosen for him. He had as much choice as a sacrificial lamb.

[2timothy316]

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Rom 9:21)

Notice that in that verse that both types of vessels come from the same lump of clay. This means we all start the same way. Its only after molding that our 'use' comes into play. We can either mold ourselves with evil things and deeds or mold ourselves with God's good things and deeds.

You are imposing too much on a simple metaphor - it doesn't have infinite applications. We may all start with the same chemicals, but people are born with different abilities and some are incapable of making choices for themselves. We must thank the careless potter.

Read the context of the scripture. It's not talking about coming from the same 'chemicals'. You're thinking in a 21st century terms. The 'potter' is not making different 'chemicals' from the same 'chemicals'. We come from the same lump. Have you seen what a lump looks like? It has no discernible shape. That is what the Bible is talking about. Our desires start out as shapeless until we start giving them form. Our chemical composition has nothing to do with it.


It is a lump of clay ready to be shaped into something. We all come from that lump. What and who we allow to shape us is what that whole verse is about. Not our chemical composition. You say that I'm imposing too much but really that is not true. Going on about chemical composition is really a bit too much.

As for choosing good or bad, we are all (except Christ) able to chose one or the other and no one chooses good exclusively, since we all make mistakes. Christ was modelled in such a way that he could follow only the path chosen for him. He had as much choice as a sacrificial lamb.

The scripture isn't about perfection either by trying to compare ourselves to Jesus, a perfect man. It's about who we allow to shape our desires even with our inability to follow Christ's example perfectly. Christ covers those errors, but it doesn't cover a person allowing their desires to be shaped into something fit for destruction.

[ttruscott]

As for choosing good or bad, we are all (except Christ) able to chose one or the other and no one chooses good exclusively, since we all make mistakes. Christ was modelled in such a way that he could follow only the path chosen for him. He had as much choice as a sacrificial lamb.

What gives you reason to suppose this is true rather than as our saviour He CHOSE by His free will to live His life and die for us? I see no indication that He did not do so by His free will choice. Following a plan, even someone else's plan (which it was not) does not imply one is forced to follow it since they might have chosen to follow it as the best of all possible decisions.

[marco]

Read the context of the scripture. It's not talking about coming from the same 'chemicals'. You're thinking in a 21st century terms. The 'potter' is not making different 'chemicals' from the same 'chemicals'. We come from the same lump.

Well let's agree that this is just a metaphor. Of course we don't all come from a lump of clay and of course we are composed of chemicals, many of which are in clay, often as impurities.

Have you seen what a lump looks like? It has no discernible shape. That is what the Bible is talking about. Our desires start out as shapeless until we start giving them form. Our chemical composition has nothing to do with it.

I gather we not talking in scientific terms but are still deep in metaphor. The stupidity behind this potter-clay stuff is that some artefacts are damaged and don't have much choice when the clay sets. It is not the case that we all make informed choices. If you want to use the metaphor we can say that the potter has made some damaged artefacts.

What and who we allow to shape us is what that whole verse is about.

Then the whole verse is nonsensical. "Allow" has no meaning for some.

Not our chemical composition. You say that I'm imposing too much but really that is not true. Going on about chemical composition is really a bit too much.

We are victims of our chemistry. Remove some chemicals and we get ill or die. The clay rubbish has nothing to do with it.

[2timothy316]

Then the whole verse is nonsensical. "Allow" has no meaning for some.

Those 'some' are not my concern.

We are victims of our chemistry. Remove some chemicals and we get ill or die. The clay rubbish has nothing to do with it.

You are entitled to your own interpretation of course. I content that chemistry rubbish has nothing to do with it. The scripture is about being shaped from a 'lump' to something useful for either something honorable or not.