A Good God would not send a decent Atheist to hell.

[marketandchurch]

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:

Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

[Logicaloutreach]

[Replying to Elijah John]

I didnt state anything as fact I said "IF". And it is impossible to debate my position unless I explain the dynamic of my belief! It is the same violation when someone misqoutes the bible as a fact. I've heard preaching all my life and this is far from preaching! Preaching would be telling to people ro get right and repent. I am merely use logical deduction and facts. To explain how the bible views humanity to the best of my knowledge.

I'm only state what the bible is saying. You can't debate christianity without using christianity as your position of antithesis.

[mschany]

This was the post that got me banned on Christian Chat:

Then God doesn't care about the goodness and decency of an atheist, a buddhist, etc. And if that is the message you are telling me, then there is no point to being a good person. There is no point of fighting on behalf of the oppressed, as America did, in WWII. The only purpose of fighting the Japanese, and beating back the Nazi's should have been so that we could bring more people to christ...is that what your saying? Should America be sending food and aid to heathens in Haiti? Should America be helping out muslims in disaster relief fallowing a natural disaster, unless it is to bring them to Christ? Is a person's only value to you, there potential to become a convert? They have no humanity beyond that?

You have an old testament my_adonai, and you are to be as obsessed with its obsessions, as you are with the new testament's. And the Old Testament's preoccupation is fighting evil, championing the good, and making a more ethical existence, during this lifetime.

And unless you think Christians alone can make this lifetime a little better, a little less genocidal, with a little less starvation, a little less torture, etc, it is an unethical message to peddle, that a good God would demand goodness, unless one doesn't believe in his son. Then one's goodness is pointless. One might as well not care about not gossiping behind other people's back, destroying someone's dignity in public, sleeping with a coworker's wife, extorting an elderly couple that one was hired to help, raping a pre-pubcescent child, killing another human being because of their skin color, etc, etc, etc.

Apparently, I was challenging people's faith, and was just there to be anti-christian, in saying that a Good God would not send to hell decent people, simply because they do not believe in his Son. I got all sorts of less then appetizing replies, saying I'm screwed for eternity, if I don't accept Jesus. I feel that I am not alone, even within the Christian community, in thinking this as I've heard many catholic priests, and mainstream protestant pastors, while I was growing up, distancing themselves from such a belief. I don't know where people on this forum stand, but I'll put it up for debate:

• Topic of Debate: A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

If you agree with me, and are a Christian, please square your response with the rest of the New Testament. What I'm looking for is scriptural consistency to back up your position, and more importantly, how one will then re-read the entire message of the New Testament, if one wants to hold that position. I say this because I don't want you to drop scripture, simply because it doesn't conform to your own personal beliefs, but I am looking for how one can reinterpret the New testament, if one drops that central tenant, & for the rest of us, impediment, to everlasting life. Is there room for this? Or is the New Testament rigidly in the affirmative about Christ being the only way to heaven? Which is fine. That's their theology, but let's see where this goes.

No idea if anyone has mentioned this, but being good does not necessary mean you will be save. Why? Because we must first grasp the concept of sin. Sin biggest issue is it puts a barrier between us and God. Even the Seraphims cover their face with their wings because the Holiness of God is so great.

Among the many virtuals of God, Righteousness, which means everything He does is right and Holiness, which means he is Pure and without fault is two very important characteristic we must remember. Just imagine, if I came up to you and punch you in the face, you will be angry, possible retaliate etc. You will know that hitting me back will also land you in trouble and possibly you may feel abit of guilt the next few days and think "i could have handle the issue better". Now, imagine God in its Holiness and Rightousness, and you do something not in accordance to him will, imagine how he feels. Because of His Mercy and Love we are still standing around today. And to make matters worse, we are born with this original sin, which is putting this barrier between us and God.

So inorder to help put us back on track, He creates a set of commandments, but because we cannot follow them true and true, the next path to salvation was Jesus Christ.

So the question, will an atheist go to hell? That is ultimately God to judge, for he is righteous. So, grasp the concept of Sin, and you will understand why He gave us Christ and the entire Bible will unveil itself a the Book of Salvation.

*Food for thought!!*
But remember....God's other virtual is He doesn't change. Meaning he doesnt deny himself. What he says is and doesnt make a u-turn later!

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 877 by tam]

The simplest question to ask here is if all Christians (not all who call themselves Christians are Christians) are kings and priests of the Kingdom, then who are the subjects of that Kingdom?

That caught my eye. God's people are to be a nation of priests. There are no subjects.

[JoeyKnothead]

Peace to you!

I have not read all 88 pages of this thread that has resurfaced. I will just focus on the OP. You are looking for scriptural reasons to back this up:

A Good God would not send to hell a decent person, simply for not believing in his son.

Setting aside for the moment what 'hell' is (a place of fiery torment or simply the grave), more than just Christians enter the Kingdom.

We can see this in the sheep and the goats parable, where the sheep the goats are neither of them Christian, but the sheep are still invited into the Kingdom:

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left."

Christians, on the other hand, are taken up. When Christ returns, He gathers up those who belong to Him - His Bride.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1Thessalonians 4:16,17

Christ Himself said, speaking of His return:

"I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."


Back to the parable:

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"

The King will reply, "I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."


1 - The sheep are invited in on the basis of what they did to Christ's brothers. (not knowingly, for gain, but unknowingly - because they had to ask when they did good to Him, and a Christian would know that by doing good to His brothers, they are doing good to Him - even if just from reading this parable)

2 - People have objected to this understanding because the sheep are called righteous, and they think that only those who believe in Christ and God can be righteous. But this is untrue. There is a second witness to those people who will be called righteous based on what they DO.

Paul writes,

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through [Jesus] Christ, as my gospel declares."


It is the law of love that these sheep have written upon their hearts, and they do naturally the requirements of that law, and that is why they have also done good to even the least of Christ's brothers. Because they do that good - out of love - to ALL people.



They are not in Christ - so they do not rule as kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom. But they are in love, have love as a covering, and they are also declared righteous, and invited into the Kingdom.


*****


As for Christians:

Christ gathers all of those who belong to Him - His Bride - to rule as kings and priests with Him for a thousand years in His Kingdom. Christians sit down upon thrones with Him.

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Revelation 5:10

To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Revelation 3:21

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. Revelation 20:4-6


The simplest question to ask here is if all Christians (not all who call themselves Christians are Christians) are kings and priests of the Kingdom, then who are the subjects of that Kingdom?

**


Then there is also the resurrection of the dead, the second resurrection (after the thousand years, after Satan has been released, the battle has been won) The dead - everyone who has ever died - small and great - are resurrected. Some to judgment, and some to life. (revelation 20:11-15)

But Christians were already gathered to Christ in the first resurrection. So how can they be among the dead now being resurrected? Yet, these dead are judged according to their individual books (the deeds and words of their lives). Same as the sheep and the goats were judged. And any whose names are written in the lamb's book of life are also invited into the Kingdom.

Two resurrections. The first for Christians. The second for everyone else who has died, from the beginning.


****


On top of all of that, all Israel will be saved.

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

All Israel will not be kings and priests - as they would have been had they accepted their King when He came to them and called them. Some will be kings and priests (the remnant that God reserved for Himself... the 144 000 written about in Revelation), and any more than that number who accept Christ. But all will be saved, and invited into the Kingdom.


***

This will not be enough for all of those who have been convinced that Christians go to heaven, and everyone else goes to hell.

But at the very least, those who seek truth should be able to at least reason - except for the fear that religion has installed in man - that someone who has love upon their hearts, and does the requirements of that law, can be invited into the Kingdom. They are not going to wreak havoc in the Kingdom. They have proven that the law is upon their heart.

God is good. And just. And merciful. And love. We should probably stop putting our limitations on Him.


None need take my word for anything. Test against what is written. Test against love. To know the truth, ask Christ for the truth of this matter (so test against the light that is Christ). May you, if you wish them be given ears so as to be able to hear the truth from Him; as well as to hear the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come. Take the free gift of the water of Life."



I do not have to drop scripture to have this understanding. Scripture supports it, as I have shared with you above. Hopefully that helps along the line with what you were asking.


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I worship me the God this'n here does.

Live to love.