A QUESTION FOR ANYONE WHO HOLDS TO FREE WILL UNTO SALVATION

[Eddie Ramos]

How is it possible for someone to think they are truly saved (based on their free will), but truly not be saved at all?

Proverbs 30:12 (KJV 1900)
There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes,
And yet is not washed from their filthiness.

Matthew 7:22–23 (KJV 1900)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Acts 8:13 (KJV 1900)
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 8:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Thou (Simon) hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #8]

None of your references prove that God is not waiting for people to repent. The Scriptures are clear that that is what he is waiting for. Otherwise he wouldn't be waiting for anything. (2Peter 3:9; Deuteronomy 30: 15-20) People must choose to listen to him or they won't have life.

As I showed above, the "people" are specific people, they are the beloved whom God was being patient with. The longsuffering (patience) of God was directed solely to his chosen people, the elect. God had a specific time and season of when he whould grant repentance to each of his elect. That time period lasted from the day man fell in the garden until the end of the great tribulation period. Then God shut the door to salvation. So, while the door was open, God worked out his salvation plan in the lives of each of his elect. Free will unto salvation is an impossability according to the scriptures because salvation is a spiritual event not a physical event. That is why truly believing was never based on the will of man but only on our dead soul first being brought to eternal life in order that we could truly believe.

John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born (meaning born again), not of blood (not because of any bloodline), nor of the WILL of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Not born again by man's own will nor his desire.

The people had to receive Him of their own will, then He gave them power to become His sons. They had to believe of their own volition. For someone to CHOOSE they must make up their own minds as to what to do.

Jehovah said to the Israelites: "I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must CHOOSE life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring." (Deuteronomy 30:19)

The same goes for every human that ever lived.

[Eddie Ramos]

The people had to receive Him of their own will, then He gave them power to become His sons. They had to believe of their own volition. For someone to CHOOSE they must make up their own minds as to what to do.

Ok, so what do we do with the scripture I gave you that states the exact opposite of what you're stating?

John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, (meaning born again) not of blood (not born again because of any bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (not born again because we will of my sin cursed flesh), nor of the will of man (not born again because of man's own will), but of God (But we were born again by the will of God).

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

And despite what the Bible says above, you stated, "The people had to receive Him of their own will, then He gave them power to become His sons.".

The biggest problem I've seen with discussing the scriptures is that when people are set in their ways, that no amount of correction from the Bible will change what they have already accepted to be "truth". I hope this is not the case here. You don't have to reply to this, but why not atleast ask yourself why is the Bible contradicting what you are saying? If the Bible agreed with your doctrine, then everywhere you look, you should be able to find harmony (agreement) within the Bible. That is the only way for any of us to be sure we have arrived at a conclusion that is altogether in line with the Bible as a whole.

Jehovah said to the Israelites: "I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must CHOOSE life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring." (Deuteronomy 30:19)

The same goes for every human that ever lived.

We already went over this. This was a command from God to choose him, not an option. Furthermore, this was an earthly blessing God was speaking of and not salvation.
Please examine the context.

Deuteronomy 30:15–20 (KJV 1900)
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

[onewithhim]

The people had to receive Him of their own will, then He gave them power to become His sons. They had to believe of their own volition. For someone to CHOOSE they must make up their own minds as to what to do.

Ok, so what do we do with the scripture I gave you that states the exact opposite of what you're stating?

John 1:12–13 (KJV 1900)
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, (meaning born again) not of blood (not born again because of any bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh (not born again because we will of my sin cursed flesh), nor of the will of man (not born again because of man's own will), but of God (But we were born again by the will of God).

James 1:18 (KJV 1900)
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

And despite what the Bible says above, you stated, "The people had to receive Him of their own will, then He gave them power to become His sons.".

The biggest problem I've seen with discussing the scriptures is that when people are set in their ways, that no amount of correction from the Bible will change what they have already accepted to be "truth". I hope this is not the case here. You don't have to reply to this, but why not atleast ask yourself why is the Bible contradicting what you are saying? If the Bible agreed with your doctrine, then everywhere you look, you should be able to find harmony (agreement) within the Bible. That is the only way for any of us to be sure we have arrived at a conclusion that is altogether in line with the Bible as a whole.

Jehovah said to the Israelites: "I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must CHOOSE life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring." (Deuteronomy 30:19)

The same goes for every human that ever lived.

We already went over this. This was a command from God to choose him, not an option. Furthermore, this was an earthly blessing God was speaking of and not salvation.
Please examine the context.

Deuteronomy 30:15–20 (KJV 1900)
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that leads us to believe that God commands us to believe and doesn't allow for our own thoughts and goals. His will is that all will come to be saved, but it all depends on what people make up their minds to do. His will is that Jesus saves, but Jesus could have bowed out of his predicament. Because Jesus did not bow out he was given more authority and his name is above every name given among men (Philippians 2:9) Jehovah didn't MAKE him do it. Jehovah's will is one thing, and for people to choose to go along with His will is another. Jehovah has said that Israel must choose to follow Him (Deut.30:15-20) to keep living. It was up to them to choose to follow Him. Their own will was compared with God's will, and if they ignored God's will they would die. Choosing is still in the picture.

[Eddie Ramos]

There is nothing in the Scriptures that leads us to believe that God commands us to believe and doesn't allow for our own thoughts and goals.

If our various discussions remain consistent, then you may remain insistent on your position even when I show you that the Bible disagrees with your assesment. God most assuredly commands everyone to believe in him. It's not a suggestion, it's not a plea. To believe in Jesus Christ is a command.

1 John 3:23 (KJV 1900)
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

1 John 3:23 Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another, just as he gave us commandment.- New World Translation

To "have faith" is more accurately translated as "to believe" because this Greek word is the verb form of the word faith. So, the Bible most assurely commands us to believe in Jesus. And just to make sure we don't misunderstand this, he also includes the commandment to love one another. Now, how can we verify that this is a correct understanding of this verse? By comparing scripture with scripture. And what is it called when a person refuses to obey any of God's commandments? It is called disobedience. Now let's see what more the Bible has to say.

1 Peter 2:7–8 (KJV 1900)
Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Why does God contrast "believing" with being "disobedient"? It's because to believe in Jesus is a command of God, as we previously saw. This is why no one could become saved by keeping any of God's commandments like "believing" of their own will (as I showed you with John 1:12-13). So, I hope that you wil examine these things and ask yourself why the Bible contradicts what you have been taught. Remember, God's method of correcting our incorrect doctrines are by way of contradicting what we hold to be true. But when we can find agreement throughout the scriptures as a whole, then we can be sure we have arrived at truth.

His will is that all will come to be saved, but it all depends on what people make up their minds to do.

We already spoke about this and you're still incorrect. Why did God speak in parables? Was it because it was "his will that all become saved"? The Bible says, no. Here is an Old Testament prophecy of the preaching of the gospel among the nation of Israel.

Isaiah 6:7–11 (KJV 1900)
7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people,
Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
And see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10  Make the heart of this people fat,
And make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
11  Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered,
Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant,
And the houses without man,
And the land be utterly desolate,

Does this agree with your doctrine of "His will is that all will become saved"? How about this passage?

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (KJV 1900)
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Does this sound like God's will is that all become saved? NO, but you've taken one verse and misapplied it to those whom the Bible has not applied it to.

2 Peter 3:8–9 (KJV 1900)
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The context of who are being spoken to are the beloved. Therefore when God says that islongsuffering (patient) to "US-WARD", he is referring to the elect of God. This is why we have to examine our understanding with the scriptures themselves to see if we find agreement all throughout. or if we find contradictions to our doctrine, which means that we have to make correction or remain stiff necked and ignore the Bible's correction.

His will is that Jesus saves, but Jesus could have bowed out of his predicament. Because Jesus did not bow out he was given more authority and his name is above every name given among men (Philippians 2:9) Jehovah didn't MAKE him do it. Jehovah's will is one thing, and for people to choose to go along with His will is another. Jehovah has said that Israel must choose to follow Him (Deut.30:15-20) to keep living. It was up to them to choose to follow Him. Their own will was compared with God's will, and if they ignored God's will they would die. Choosing is still in the picture.

You obviously ignore most of what I am saying because I showed you already that the context which you are quoting Deut 30 from has to do with earthly blessing for obedience and death for disobedience. This has nothing to do with choosing salvation. Still, not much of a choice though if God didn't just honor their free will choice to just go on and live their heathen lives without God punishing them with death.

Romans 9:15–23 (KJV 1900)
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it (God's mercy) is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

[onewithhim]

There is nothing in the Scriptures that leads us to believe that God commands us to believe and doesn't allow for our own thoughts and goals.

If our various discussions remain consistent, then you may remain insistent on your position even when I show you that the Bible disagrees with your assesment. God most assuredly commands everyone to believe in him. It's not a suggestion, it's not a plea. To believe in Jesus Christ is a command.

Yes to believe in Jesus is a command. We can take it or leave it. It's up to each one of us. If we ignore His command, the outcome is death.

[Eddie Ramos]

There is nothing in the Scriptures that leads us to believe that God commands us to believe and doesn't allow for our own thoughts and goals.

If our various discussions remain consistent, then you may remain insistent on your position even when I show you that the Bible disagrees with your assesment. God most assuredly commands everyone to believe in him. It's not a suggestion, it's not a plea. To believe in Jesus Christ is a command.

Yes to believe in Jesus is a command. We can take it or leave it. It's up to each one of us. If we ignore His command, the outcome is death.

Now that you have e acknowledged that to believe in Jesus is a commandment, I'd like to show you some verses and then ask you a question.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Titus 3:5-7 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

My question is, how can believing save you since it is a commandment and obedience to ANY commandment is a work of righteousness (a work of the law).

So, for anyone thinking he/she has been justified (made righteous) by exercising obedience to a law, now you have obligated yourself to keep the whole law perfectly.

Galatians 5:4 (KJV)
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This means that if anyone trusts in the work of righteousness they have done for salvation , that they have rejected God's grace.

James 2:10 (KJV)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, salvation was either by grace through the faith OF Jesus Christ alone, or it was by the keeping of the whole law perfectly. And no sin cursed man could ever keep the law perfectly.

This is why believing in Jesus Christ was done because God had already saved us and never to become saved. We were saved unto good works (like believing).

This is precisely why God has given us examples in the Bible of people taking it upon themselves to "believe in Jesus" and yet that did not save them.

[onewithhim]

There is nothing in the Scriptures that leads us to believe that God commands us to believe and doesn't allow for our own thoughts and goals.

If our various discussions remain consistent, then you may remain insistent on your position even when I show you that the Bible disagrees with your assesment. God most assuredly commands everyone to believe in him. It's not a suggestion, it's not a plea. To believe in Jesus Christ is a command.

Yes to believe in Jesus is a command. We can take it or leave it. It's up to each one of us. If we ignore His command, the outcome is death.

Now that you have e acknowledged that to believe in Jesus is a commandment, I'd like to show you some verses and then ask you a question.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Titus 3:5-7 (KJV)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

My question is, how can believing save you since it is a commandment and obedience to ANY commandment is a work of righteousness (a work of the law).

So, for anyone thinking he/she has been justified (made righteous) by exercising obedience to a law, now you have obligated yourself to keep the whole law perfectly.

Galatians 5:4 (KJV)
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

This means that if anyone trusts in the work of righteousness they have done for salvation , that they have rejected God's grace.

James 2:10 (KJV)
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

In other words, salvation was either by grace through the faith OF Jesus Christ alone, or it was by the keeping of the whole law perfectly. And no sin cursed man could ever keep the law perfectly.

This is why believing in Jesus Christ was done because God had already saved us and never to become saved. We were saved unto good works (like believing).

This is precisely why God has given us examples in the Bible of people taking it upon themselves to "believe in Jesus" and yet that did not save them.

"Believing" denotes some kind of ACTION. The Scripture says "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, KJV) When we believe, we have taken action within us to DECIDE that we do believe in Jesus. It is up to us to accept Jesus, and if we do not we will perish.

[Eddie Ramos]

"Believing" denotes some kind of ACTION. The Scripture says "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, KJV) When we believe, we have taken action within us to DECIDE that we do believe in Jesus. It is up to us to accept Jesus, and if we do not we will perish.

The action you speak of is the keeping of a commandment, yet the scriptures tell us that no man is justified by the works of the law. That means that no man is justified (made righteous) by keeping a single commandment, like believing. And John 3:16 does not stand alone but must be understood in light of the whole of the scriptures. Whosoever believes does not mean anyone who decides of their own will to believe will have eternal life. The "whosoever" must be defined by the Bible, not by us. And as John 1 told us, those who (truly) believe are those who did so, not by their own will, but by God's. You seem to keep dismissing that. So, the bottom line here is that anyone who trusts in a work of righteousness they have done, like the action/work to believe in Jesus, that decision never saved them.

Matthew 7:22–23 (KJV 1900)
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Acts 8:13 (KJV 1900)
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 8:21–23 (KJV 1900)
Thou (Simon) hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

John 8:30–31 (KJV 1900)
As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;........John 8:37–38 (KJV 1900)
37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father........
John 8:44 (KJV 1900)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

So, the Bible teaches us that "believing" is a much more difficult subject to understand that most think. He does this by giving us plenty of examples of people who, of their own will, believe in Christ and yet not become saved. So, while many simply ignore this fact from the Bible and choose to only focus on that part which seems simple to understand, like "believe and be saved", these people have done the scriptures a great disservice and have never bothered to examine what they hold to be "an absolute truth" in light of the Bible as a whole. Thanks for the time on this discussion, but it appears that we may be repeating much of what was already said.

[Revelations won]

To all respondents,

I wonder if "Free will" would be better understood or expressed as "Free agency".

Yea all had the God given "agency" in heaven as spirit children of God to follow either Lucifers plan or the Fathers plan before we were sent to this earth to work out our salvation.

In the garden of eden God the Father gave instructions to Adam in the garden and added "nevertheless thou mayest chose for thyself." In other words this mighty principle of agency was reaffirmed to Adam in the garden.

All mankind have the God given power of agency. We are all free to chose, but we are not free to chose the consequences.

'Kind regards,
RW

[myth-one.com]

"Believing" denotes some kind of ACTION.

The action you speak of is the keeping of a commandment, yet the scriptures tell us that no man is justified by the works of the law.

Where is believing in Jesus ever described as a commandment?