Is Socialism Moral? Especially, Christian?

[Purple Knight]

The question for debate is whether a socialist system is closer to how Jesus intended people to behave than a capitalist one.

The sub-question is for those who think socialism is moral whether that was inspired by religion or not: If a country's laws were very close to what Jesus (or your morality) taught, but as a consequence, the country was a very bad place to live, would you move there? For example, a country that has a lot of assault because it is a law that you turn the other cheek and don't hit back, and you'll be punished for retaliating. Or a country where ministers roam around, imbued with legal authority, and they decide when you must sell all your possessions and give to the poor, including your house and car.

It's very easy to have high morals when the consequences are less present because the system you happen to live in works to protect you from them. Is there something extra moral about choosing to live where the system doesn't do that? Or is it just foolish? Because perhaps the goal is to have and hold the highest morals possible and if you've been given an ivory tower with which to protect them, that's simply a logical choice to achieve maximum morality.

[William]

[Replying to marke in post #60]

Christians have historically opposed communism while communists have a long record of murdering Christians for their religious views.

Yes. People who called themselves Communists did indeed murder Christians.
Also People who called themselves Christians did indeed murder non Christians. How is that relevant to what I posted?

[brunumb]

People who called themselves Communists did indeed murder Christians.
Also People who called themselves Christians did indeed murder non Christians.

This is perfectly in line with society today. Self-identification is recognised as truth. If a male person identifies as a woman, then s/he is a woman. If a person identifies as a Christian, they are a Christian. This is where we have come to now.

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #66]

Jesus did not preach redistribution of wealth

Of course not----that's why he told a young rich man to take all that he had and put it into a high-interest CD.

Have you got any savings in a bank? Do you think Jesus wants you to liquidate all your assets and give everything away to poor people and take up your cross and follow him? Why do leftist liberals think Jesus wants Christians to do that? Do you think that is what Jesus wants Christians to do?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #60]

Christians have historically opposed communism while communists have a long record of murdering Christians for their religious views.

Yes. People who called themselves Communists did indeed murder Christians.
Also People who called themselves Christians did indeed murder non Christians. How is that relevant to what I posted?

Who supports a government or ideology that promotes slavery? Who supports an ideology or government (besides Biden) that promotes the enslavement and abuse of millions of its citizens like China does? How is Chinese socialism or communism superior to American free market capitalism?

[oldbadger]

Jesus did not advocate robbing the rich to buy the poor out of poverty.

Matthew 26:10-12
King James Version
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.

I do wonder how the words of Jesus can help you to cling to your wealth when surrounded by the poor.

That's the problem for so many Western Christians today, I suppose. They are mixed up in some politico-spiritual religious fervour whereby they can grasp to mammon with one hand whilst clutching a prayer book in t'other.

Jesus wouldn't know such folks imo. He repeatedly told his followers not to grasp to mammon and the bible tells you: 'Lay not up thy treasures where moth and dust corrupt'.... That's true, isn't it?

[William]

[Replying to marke in post #74]

You’re not actually addressing my argument. Instead of engaging with the democratic socialism I outlined, you’re deflecting to China—a state-capitalist, authoritarian regime that has little to do with the model I’m advocating. Are you willing to have an honest conversation about worker-driven socialism, or are you only here to avoid real debate?

If socialism is inherently authoritarian, why are there successful examples of democratic socialist policies in places like Norway, Denmark, and Finland? And if capitalism is so superior, why does it consistently produce extreme inequality, economic instability, and declining worker conditions? You’re presenting this as a black-and-white issue, but reality is more complex than ‘capitalism good, socialism bad.’

As Richard Wolff explains, capitalism’s defenders often ignore its failures by pointing to flawed examples of ‘socialism’—but they never apply the same scrutiny to capitalism itself. China’s human rights abuses don’t prove capitalism is moral any more than the Great Depression proved capitalism was evil. The real question is: Can we build an economic system that prioritizes worker well-being rather than corporate or state control? That’s what I’m advocating for, but you keep dodging the conversation.

[William]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

Exactly. People call themselves whatever they want, but that doesn’t mean they embody the principles of what they claim to represent. People who called themselves Communists committed atrocities, just as people who called themselves Christians did. That doesn’t mean Communism inherently leads to violence, any more than Christianity does. The real question is: what do these ideologies actually teach? What economic system best aligns with the principles of justice and equity?

[marke]

Jesus did not advocate robbing the rich to buy the poor out of poverty.

Matthew 26:10-12
King James Version
10 When Jesus understood it, he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

11 For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

12 For in that she hath poured this ointment on my body, she did it for my burial.

I do wonder how the words of Jesus can help you to cling to your wealth when surrounded by the poor.

That's the problem for so many Western Christians today, I suppose. They are mixed up in some politico-spiritual religious fervour whereby they can grasp to mammon with one hand whilst clutching a prayer book in t'other.

Jesus wouldn't know such folks imo. He repeatedly told his followers not to grasp to mammon and the bible tells you: 'Lay not up thy treasures where moth and dust corrupt'.... That's true, isn't it?

Do you even believe what you claim about Jesus? Is Jesus also angry with you for not selling all your goods and giving the proceeds to the poor?

[marke]

[Replying to marke in post #74]

You’re not actually addressing my argument. Instead of engaging with the democratic socialism I outlined, you’re deflecting to China—a state-capitalist, authoritarian regime that has little to do with the model I’m advocating. Are you willing to have an honest conversation about worker-driven socialism, or are you only here to avoid real debate?

If socialism is inherently authoritarian, why are there successful examples of democratic socialist policies in places like Norway, Denmark, and Finland? And if capitalism is so superior, why does it consistently produce extreme inequality, economic instability, and declining worker conditions? You’re presenting this as a black-and-white issue, but reality is more complex than ‘capitalism good, socialism bad.’

As Richard Wolff explains, capitalism’s defenders often ignore its failures by pointing to flawed examples of ‘socialism’—but they never apply the same scrutiny to capitalism itself. China’s human rights abuses don’t prove capitalism is moral any more than the Great Depression proved capitalism was evil. The real question is: Can we build an economic system that prioritizes worker well-being rather than corporate or state control? That’s what I’m advocating for, but you keep dodging the conversation.

Secularists are wrong to assume America's societal ills are due to capitalism instead of due to sin and corruption. Americans have millions of poor and rich alike who prefer life in America over life in some other country, no matter how socialistic or supposedly better.

[marke]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

Exactly. People call themselves whatever they want, but that doesn’t mean they embody the principles of what they claim to represent. People who called themselves Communists committed atrocities, just as people who called themselves Christians did. That doesn’t mean Communism inherently leads to violence, any more than Christianity does. The real question is: what do these ideologies actually teach? What economic system best aligns with the principles of justice and equity?

The overwhelming volume of violence in America is committed by the unregenerate rebels against God. Don't claim violence is equally shared by true Christians as well as hardened rebels against God.