Israel Vs Palestine

[simpac]

I often here my friends debate about this topic, but until today, I knew literally nothing about it. So I've been doing some research and now I think I have a shady understanding of what happened. So I'd like to hear a debate about it to get a better understanding of the pro's and con's for each side.

From what I can tell, it's mostly my fault. (And by that i mean great Britain's fault). If you put a pack of lions in another pack's territory, they're going to go mental on each other. Which pack's fault would it be? Neither, it would be your fault for putting one pack in another pack's territory.

However, I don't think the blame can be only put on great Britain. The Israeli's moved willingly, knowing that it would cause trouble. Sure, they wanted a homeland, but I don't think they had any right to think that Israel belonged to them.

Having said that, Palestine over reacted, and if they wanted to start a war about it, they should've attacked Great Britain if anything.

I think most blame goes to Great Britain, then Palestinians, then the Israeli's.

What are your thoughts?

[ChaosBorders]

Everything you say has even more force for the Palestinians, whose country has been under Occupation.

Not when they don't accept the UN sanctioned Israel as a nation. And certainly not when they are lobbing bombs into Israel.

Is there any reason they should accept the UN sanction? Besides brute force?

Occupation forces have no such right...they are to "get out." Forcing punishment upon an entire population; "community responsibility" has been condemned as a war crime since WWII, when Resistance attacks on the Germans were met with killings of villagers nearest the attacks. Dropping cluster bombs and white phosphorus on Palestinian families is also a war crime.

As I keep saying, Israel has a right to defend herself, come heck or high water. When combatants hide amongst a civilian population they are responsible for civilian casualties.

To an extent I agree, but I also think that civilian casualties have a habit of producing even more combatants and often makes the other civilians (ironically) even more likely to hide combatants fighting the 'opressors'. Ultimately, it's not a very efficient strategy for actually stopping militants in the long run.

Most of the world finds it very strange indeed that the US helps to crush an essentially defenseless people with space-age technology and apartheid repression.

I've never felt bound to the majority opinion. Yours is an argumentum ad populum.

True.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 21:

Everything you say has even more force for the Palestinians, whose country has been under Occupation.

Not when they don't accept the UN sanctioned Israel as a nation. And certainly not when they are lobbing bombs into Israel.

Is there any reason they should accept the UN sanction? Besides brute force?

If the Palestinians appeal to the UN's authority (as DeBunkem stated or implied), they should accept Israel as a UN member nation.

As I keep saying, Israel has a right to defend herself, come heck or high water. When combatants hide amongst a civilian population they are responsible for civilian casualties.

To an extent I agree, but I also think that civilian casualties have a habit of producing even more combatants and often makes the other civilians (ironically) even more likely to hide combatants fighting the 'opressors'. Ultimately, it's not a very efficient strategy for actually stopping militants in the long run.

But if you stop targeting folks because they hide among civilians, you'll encourage the practice. Don't forget, the Palestinians have ferried weapons in ambulances, hidden combatants among civilians, and all manner of other tactics a civilized* society would condemn. *"Civilized" here is surely subjective, and all I can really offer the observer is their own morality regarding what constitutes civilized behavior.

>snip point of agreement<

For clarity, I am all for a Palestinian state. The problem comes when the use of this land presents a threat to the security of any of the Palestinian neighbors.

A nation as small, and as threatened as Israel, and with the history of its Jewish people, will be, for lack of a better phrase "irrational" when it comes to protecting itself. When you have fought for centuries for your survival, and when you have finally created a nation of your own, it flows logically that you'd seek to defend it with the utmost of your ability.

Where Israelis have acted lawlessly, I condemn them, I curse them, and I hate them. However, I still understand how feeling so threatened can cause one to act "irrationally". This goes for the Palestinians as well, with a caveat that you just don't hop on a bus full of civilians and blow them up to smithereens.

The Palestinians have it within their power to change my view of their situation, if they would accept that Jews have a right to live, and that Israel, in one form or another has a right to exist. Should the Palestinians make real, provable, and concrete steps to show they are a peace loving, peace promoting, and peaceful society I would come to their defense as strongly as I defend Israel.

I am confident there are good, honest, peaceful, loving, kind, caring, generous, and all other manner of superlative, respectful and respect worthy Palestinians who would love nothing more than to end the violence.

To these Palestinians I would say speak up, condemn the violence, and secure your rightful place and future for yourselves, and for your children's children.

Show the world you can live with those you may disagree with, that you may have profound differences with. Show the world that if Palestinians are allowed a secure, peaceful state they would ensure their neighbors have the same.

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Israeli's moved willingly, knowing that it would cause trouble. Sure, they wanted a homeland, but I don't think they had any right to think that Israel belonged to them.

That is truly one of the most stupid statements I've read in quite some time ...

[Jayhawker Soule]

For clarity, I am all for a Palestinian state. The problem comes when the use of this land presents a threat to the security of any of the Palestinian neighbors.

And this is one of the better ones.

[Jester]

Moderator Comment

That is truly one of the most stupid statements I've read in quite some time ...

You are free to disagree with any statement. You are not free to express such disagreement uncivilly or fail to provide content other than disagreement in your post.

[otseng]

At one time, Jews and Muslims lived together in peace; that was 800 years ago. But we can do it again. It may not happen in this generation, or the next; but it can happen.

I was watching a story on PBS last night showing that they lived in peace not too long ago. As a matter of fact, Muslims had helped the Jews during Nazi occupation in Tunisia. One Arab, Khaled Abdul-Wahab, had even recently been nominated for the Righteous Among the Nations.

Tunisia was the only Arab country to have a German occupation. The Germans sent in the SS to implement a full range of persecutions of Jews. Jews were executed, Jews were deported, Jews were raped. If Khaled hadn't come along and hadn't made the choice to save Anny's family, then perhaps it would have been Anny's family that would have been a statistic as well.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript ... Id=9678526

Also, according to the story, they claim that Jews and Arab Muslims lived in peace together prior to WWII in Tunisia.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Moderator Comment

That is truly one of the most stupid statements I've read in quite some time ...

You are free to disagree with any statement. You are not free to express such disagreement uncivilly or fail to provide content other than disagreement in your post.

To suggest that "Israeis moved willingly" demonstrates an unconscionable ignorance of the role of pogroms and the Shoah, on the later impact of the despicable willingness of the West to turn their backs on Jews being slaughtered by the millions, and of the efforts of the Muslim world to purge itself of its Jews. The statement was wholly worthy of contempt and derision.

[otseng]

Moderator Comment

That is truly one of the most stupid statements I've read in quite some time ...

You are free to disagree with any statement. You are not free to express such disagreement uncivilly or fail to provide content other than disagreement in your post.

To suggest that "Israeis moved willingly" demonstrates an unconscionable ignorance of the role of pogroms and the Shoah, on the later impact of the despicable willingness of the West to turn their backs on Jews being slaughtered by the millions, and of the efforts of the Muslim world to purge itself of its Jews. The statement was wholly worthy of contempt and derision.

Moderator formal warning.

Challenging a moderator action in public would be against the rules. Further, no statement on the forum is worthy of contempt and derision. You are free to correct misinformation, but you are not free to respond with either contempt or derision. If you have any further issues with the matter, please PM me directly.

[East of Eden]

Israel even attacked our forces and killed dozens on the USS Liberty, with no accountability.

Our losses in that incident were trivial when compared to the ongoing threat from radical Islam, of which the Palestinian effort to wipe out the State of Israel is a part. Much of their beef with Israel is that they are 'infidels', which to these genocidal maniacs justifies their barbaric use of suicide bombings, etc. Islam does not accept a formerly Muslim area being ruled by non-Muslims.

Why is this rogue apartheid scofflaw entity "sacrosanct" here?

I don't blame them a bit for wanting to be apart from the aforementioned racist, genocidal maniacs. The fence has done wonders for Israel's security. Strange you have such vitriol against the only democracy (along with Iraq) in the MidEast.

http://www.mideasttruth.com/cartoons.html