The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bankrupt

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TheLibertarian
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The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bankrupt

Post #1

Post by TheLibertarian »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101018/ap_ ... _cathedral
Crystal Cathedral, the megachurch birthplace of the televangelist show "Hour of Power," filed for bankruptcy Monday in Southern California after struggling to emerge from debt that exceeds $43 million.

In addition to a $36 million mortgage, the Orange County-based church owes $7.5 million to several hundred vendors for services ranging from advertising to the use of live animals in Easter and Christmas services.

The church had been negotiating a repayment plan with vendors, but several filed lawsuits seeking quicker payment, which prompted a coalition formed by creditors to fall apart.

"Tough times never last, every storm comes to an end. Right now, people need to hear that message more than ever," Sheila Schuller Coleman, the Cathedral's senior pastor and daughter of the founder, told reporters outside the worship hall decked with a soaring glass spire. "Everybody is hurting today. We are no exception," she said.

The church, founded in the mid-1950s by the Rev. Robert H. Schuller Sr., has already ordered major layoffs, cut the number of stations airing the "Hour of Power" and sold property to stay afloat.

In addition, the 10,000-member church canceled this year's "Glory of Easter" pageant, which attracts thousands of visitors and is a regional holiday staple.

The church was founded at a drive-in theater and attracted congregants with its sermons on the power of positive thinking. Its worship hall opened in 1970 and remains an architectural wonder and tourist destination.

Church leaders said the Crystal Cathedral's Sunday services and weekly-telecast "Hour of Power" will continue while in bankruptcy.

Other megachurches have also suffered from the downturn and reduced charitable giving.

Crystal Cathedral saw revenue drop roughly 30 percent in 2009 and simply couldn't slash expenses quickly enough to avoid accruing the debt, said Jim Penner, a church pastor and executive producer of the "Hour of Power."

Vendors owed money by the church formed a committee in April and agreed to a moratorium to negotiate a repayment plan with the Crystal Cathedral. But after several filed lawsuits and obtained writs of attachment to try to collect their cash, it was difficult to keep the group together, Penner said.

Now, the church is avoiding credit entirely and spends only the roughly $2 million it receives each month in donations and revenue, Penner said. The church still hopes to pay all of the vendors back in full, he said.

"What we're doing now is we're trying to walk what we preach, we're paying cash for things as we go," he said.
Here's what I don't understand. This palatial church has been in operation since 1970, and it opened with a thirty-six million dollar mortgage. Apparently the church makes two million dollars a month. That's twenty-four million dollars a year, or two-thirds of its mortgage. Assuming that it opened January 1st, 1970, it has made around a billion dollars since its inception (forty years = four hundred and eighty months, times two million dollars a month = nine hundred and sixty million dollars, assuming a relatively even intake). How absolutely terrible at financing does an organization have to be to make that kind of money and not be able to pay off its mortgage first thing? They've had forty years with which to do it!

God and Mammon. God and Mammon.

Here's your debate question:

With so many megachurches going broke through mismanagement and outright swindling, are they deleterious to the nation's economy?

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East of Eden
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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #11

Post by East of Eden »

Wyvern wrote: All of Stalins formal schooling from the age of five to twenty-one came from religious schools, from the ages of sixteen to twenty-one he even attended a seminary. Stalins values were not formed by communism which he didn't know about until he was in his twenties, nor were they formed by atheism which considering his heavily religious upbringing he also could not adopt until after his school years.
Obviously he rejected his religions past, which is why he did this:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.[77]

Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[78] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.

Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."


Apparently to you Christianity is to blame for atheist's murders. :confused2:
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #12

Post by Wyvern »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote: All of Stalins formal schooling from the age of five to twenty-one came from religious schools, from the ages of sixteen to twenty-one he even attended a seminary. Stalins values were not formed by communism which he didn't know about until he was in his twenties, nor were they formed by atheism which considering his heavily religious upbringing he also could not adopt until after his school years.
Obviously he rejected his religions past, which is why he did this:

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.[77]

Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[78] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, after the NKVD had recruited the new metropolitan, the first after the revolution, as a secret agent. Thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.

Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church, Uniats, Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."


Apparently to you Christianity is to blame for atheist's murders.
You brought up Mother Theresa as an example of what christian teaching can make a person into while I just illustrated with Stalin the exact same thing. Both had extensive religious education and yet the outcomes could not be more different. Stalin simply converted from being a christian to being a communist and as such when he achieved power he attempted to purge the state of heretics to his new religion not unlike how Torquemada tried to purge the Spanish state of heretics.

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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #13

Post by East of Eden »

Wyvern wrote: You brought up Mother Theresa as an example of what christian teaching can make a person into while I just illustrated with Stalin the exact same thing.
Except Stalin rejected Christian teaching, making your argument moot. What teachings of Christ was Stalin following?
Both had extensive religious education and yet the outcomes could not be more different. Stalin simply converted from being a christian to being a communist and as such when he achieved power he attempted to purge the state of heretics to his new religion not unlike how Torquemada tried to purge the Spanish state of heretics.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #14

Post by Wyvern »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote: You brought up Mother Theresa as an example of what christian teaching can make a person into while I just illustrated with Stalin the exact same thing.
Except Stalin rejected Christian teaching, making your argument moot. What teachings of Christ was Stalin following?
I would say he was following the same teachings as Torquemada.

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Post #15

Post by East of Eden »

Wyvern wrote: I would say he was following the same teachings as Torquemada.
What teachings of Christ was Torquemada following? Not this one:

Mark 9:38 John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ 39But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterwards to speak evil of me. 40Whoever is not against us is for us.

A philosophy isn't judged by it's misuse.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Re: The "Crystal Cathedral" megachurch is now bank

Post #16

Post by Wyvern »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote: I would say he was following the same teachings as Torquemada.
What teachings of Christ was Torquemada following? Not this one:

Mark 9:38 John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ 39But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him; for no one who does a deed of power in my name will be able soon afterwards to speak evil of me. 40Whoever is not against us is for us.

A philosophy isn't judged by it's misuse.
Then why are you judging communism by those who misused it such as Stalin? If you want to characterize Stalin as typical communist behavior then it is fair to use Torquemada in the same fashion regarding christianity.

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Post #17

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Wyvern wrote: Then why are you judging communism by those who misused it such as Stalin? If you want to characterize Stalin as typical communist behavior then it is fair to use Torquemada in the same fashion regarding christianity.
Are you actually trying to propose Christianity and Marxism have the same foundational beliefs? Jesus harmed no one, nor did he tell anyone to. His ministry was one of service to others and self-sacrifice. Marxism is built on the idea of violent revolution to transform society, you know, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelete. Most normal people aren't going to do along willingly with these crackpot ideas, so force must be used. I didn't write the following, but it summarizes well why Marxism is inherently coercive and violent:

Marx (1818-1883) was influenced considerably by Hegel’s dialectic concept. George Hegel (1770-1831) held that religion, science, history, and ‘most everything else’ evolves to a higher state as time progresses.54 It does this by a process called the dialectic, in which a thesis (an idea) eventually confronts an antithesis (an opposing idea), producing a synthesis or a blend of the best of the old and new ideas.55 Marx concluded that capitalism is the thesis, and the organized proletariat is the antithesis. Essentially, the central conflict in capitalism was between those who controlled the means of production (the owners, the wealthy class, or the bourgeoisie) and those who did the actual physical work (the workers or the proletariat). Marx’s central idea was that the synthesis (i.e. communism) would emerge from the struggle between the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. This is illustrated by Marx’s famous phrase, ‘workers of the world unite and overthrow your oppressors’.

Marx concluded that the masses (the workers—those persons who worked in the factories and the farms) would struggle with the business owners, the wealthy and the entrepreneurs. Since there were a lot more workers than owners, Marx believed that the workers eventually would overthrow the entrepreneurs by violent revolution, taking their factories and wealth. The result would be a dictatorship by the proletariat. Marx then believed that private property would be abolished, and the workers would collectively own the country, including the farms and the means of production. All the workers then would share equally in the fruits of their labor, producing a classless society in which everyone earned an equal amount of money. This philosophy obviously appealed to millions of people, especially the poor, the downtrodden, and many middle class people who had a concern for the poor.

Communist revolutions resulted in forcibly taking the wealth from the land-owning classes, the wealthy, the industrialists and others. Appropriating the land and wealth from the property owners in general resulted in an enormous amount of widespread resistance.

Many of these people had built their wealth from hard work and astute business decisions, and were not willing to give up what in many cases they had worked very hard for years to obtain. A bloodbath resulted that took the lives of hundreds of millions of people. Those murdered often included the most talented entrepreneurs, the most skilled industrialists, and the intellectual backbone of the nation. The workers were put in charge of the companies and factories once run by what Marx called the bourgeoisie; many of these workers lacked the skills and personal qualities necessary to run these businesses. Consequently, inferior products, low productivity and an incredible amount of waste was the rule for generations in the Communist world.
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #18

Post by Wyvern »

East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote: Then why are you judging communism by those who misused it such as Stalin? If you want to characterize Stalin as typical communist behavior then it is fair to use Torquemada in the same fashion regarding christianity.
Are you actually trying to propose Christianity and Marxism have the same foundational beliefs?
No I'm not, what I'm proposing is that you use the same standards both for those things you agree with and those you do not, in other words I want you to be fair. If you take issue with using an example of an ideology you like(christianity and Torquemada) then you should not do the exact same thing in regards to an ideology you do not like(communism and Stalin). A few posts ago you wrote this, a philosophy isn't judged by its misuse. If you truly believe that then why would you use the worst example possible in regards to communism? If you don't believe what you wrote why object to the use of Torquemada as an example? If you actually think you are justified in using your example and objecting to mine you are simply using a double standard.

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Post #19

Post by East of Eden »

Wyvern wrote:
East of Eden wrote:
Wyvern wrote: Then why are you judging communism by those who misused it such as Stalin? If you want to characterize Stalin as typical communist behavior then it is fair to use Torquemada in the same fashion regarding christianity.
Are you actually trying to propose Christianity and Marxism have the same foundational beliefs?
No I'm not, what I'm proposing is that you use the same standards both for those things you agree with and those you do not, in other words I want you to be fair. If you take issue with using an example of an ideology you like(christianity and Torquemada) then you should not do the exact same thing in regards to an ideology you do not like(communism and Stalin). A few posts ago you wrote this, a philosophy isn't judged by its misuse. If you truly believe that then why would you use the worst example possible in regards to communism? If you don't believe what you wrote why object to the use of Torquemada as an example? If you actually think you are justified in using your example and objecting to mine you are simply using a double standard.
Your error is in equating Torquemada with Christianity, when in fact he disregarded Christ's teachings. I note you had to go back centuries to find this example. He is as much an aberation to Christianity as a peaceful, human-rights respecting leader of a Communist nation would be. Does such a creature even exist?
"We are fooling ourselves if we imagine that we can ever make the authentic Gospel popular......it is too simple in an age of rationalism; too narrow in an age of pluralism; too humiliating in an age of self-confidence; too demanding in an age of permissiveness; and too unpatriotic in an age of blind nationalism." Rev. John R.W. Stott, CBE

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Post #20

Post by Wyvern »

Your error is in equating Torquemada with Christianity, when in fact he disregarded Christ's teachings.

This smells an awful lot like the no true scotsman fallacy. Torquemada was not just a christian but a very high ranking one, he was the head of the Inquisition directly answerable to the pope.
I note you had to go back centuries to find this example.

I note you had to go back to the founding of the Soviet Union to find your example. Both examples were high level functionaries of their particular ideology and both went to extremes in order to bring about their idea of purity to their ideology, so if one is inappropriate then both have to be inappropriate.
He is as much an aberation to Christianity as a peaceful, human-rights respecting leader of a Communist nation would be. Does such a creature even exist?
Gorbachev comes to mind. You would have us compare an Indian charity worker to a Georgian leader of the Soviet state during a revolution and war and think it is a fair comparison? The truly amazing thing is you do not seem to even see the intrinsic unfairness of your copmparison.

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