Is it ever permissible to lie?

[Zzyzx]

One of the Ten Commandments states: “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor”.

What does that mean, exactly? Without getting into the intricacies of possible translation or transcription errors, let’s consider the commandment as it is stated in English today.

Does it mean to never make a false statement? Or does it mean something different or more precise?

The words “bear false witness” mean telling something untrue, usually in an authoritative or official sense or environment. “Against thy neighbor” specifies against another person.

Saying the same thing in modern language: “Do not make a false sworn statement or civil charge against another person, particularly in court”.

Another way the statement might be interpreted is: “Do not speak falsely about another person to other people”.

What the commandment does NOT say is: “never make a false statement”.

1) How do you interpret the commandment and why do you think your interpretation is correct?

2) In your opinion is it ever permissible to make a false statement? If so, under what circumstances and within what limits is falsehood acceptable in your code of ethics?

I pose this question in the real world populated by real people. It is not intended to be abstract or deeply philosophical or profoundly theological – just real people talking to one another. (In other words, let’s get real here).

[Greatest I Am]

A true lie would contain malicious intent.
If a lie creates a victim or complaint then it would be wrong.

If a lie does not produce a victim or complainant then we can say that it is OK to lie.

Yes we can tell uncle Sam that his ugly tie is nice or the dress that puts 30 LB on aunt Martha is slimming.

Regards
DL

[McCulloch]

Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no.

[twobitsmedia]

One of the Ten Commandments states: “Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor”.

What does that mean, exactly? Without getting into the intricacies of possible translation or transcription errors, let’s consider the commandment as it is stated in English today.

Does it mean to never make a false statement? Or does it mean something different or more precise?

The words “bear false witness” mean telling something untrue, usually in an authoritative or official sense or environment. “Against thy neighbor” specifies against another person.

Saying the same thing in modern language: “Do not make a false sworn statement or civil charge against another person, particularly in court”.

Another way the statement might be interpreted is: “Do not speak falsely about another person to other people”.

What the commandment does NOT say is: “never make a false statement”.

1) How do you interpret the commandment and why do you think your interpretation is correct?

2) In your opinion is it ever permissible to make a false statement? If so, under what circumstances and within what limits is falsehood acceptable in your code of ethics?

I pose this question in the real world populated by real people. It is not intended to be abstract or deeply philosophical or profoundly theological – just real people talking to one another. (In other words, let’s get real here).

I believe the commandment to be accurate as written. We are not not bear false witness against our neighbor. This does not mean that our neighbor or enemy is entitled to the truth from us about things that are of no concern to them or private to us. No enemy or criminal has any right to knowledge from us which can be used to do us evil. (Ei.e, God did not condemn Abraham and Isaac for lying in order to avoid murder and rape, but instead are richly blessed, and the people who put them in that position were condemned or judged). If the commandment were "never make a false statement" then you have forfieted your right to protect yourself in situations like this. Rahab is mentioned as a great person of faith in Hebrews but clearly lied to save the two men. Contrary to what I see as a lot of Christian misconception (the idea of everyone owing their posessions to everyone else), I believe the Levitical law protected personal property and privacy. As it is written, it protects a persons privacy.

[Cathar1950]

To save a life, yes.
If you have Jews hiding in you attic, yes.
If your wife or girlfriend asks "am I beautiful", yes.

[Zzyzx]

A true lie would contain malicious intent.
If a lie creates a victim or complaint then it would be wrong.

If a lie does not produce a victim or complainant then we can say that it is OK to lie.

Yes we can tell uncle Sam that his ugly tie is nice or the dress that puts 30 LB on aunt Martha is slimming.

Regards
DL

GIA, you present an interesting view. May I ask a few questions?

1) What is the source of the criteria, “If a lie creates a victim or complaint then it would be wrong”? Is there a basis in ethics, law, reality, or religion for this position?

2) Must the victim or complainant be obvious to the liar in order for the lie to be “wrong”? If not, how could one ever identify a “safe” lie?

3) How can one be SURE in advance that there will be no harm done by falsehood?

4) Is misleading a person about their appearance (providing a false positive) NOT creating a victim? They may ask about appearance seeking an honest answer and may take or not take action they would deem appropriate if given false information.

5) Can a lie be deemed “wrong” if it creates a victim long after it is told? For example, false information provided long ago causes a person to take action today that is disastrous. Does that long ago lie become “wrong” retroactively?

I believe the commandment to be accurate as written. We are not not bear false witness against our neighbor. This does not mean that our neighbor or enemy is entitled to the truth from us about things that are of no concern to them or private to us. No enemy or criminal has any right to knowledge from us which can be used to do us evil.

What, exactly, are the "limits of lying"? To whom can one lie without it being wrong? Friends and enemies?

Are those limits specified in the bible or are they made up by "interpreters"? Who is authorized to give the "official version"?

Are we always entitled to lie to protect private information? Is it "not wrong" to lie to the government to protect private information -- if one considers the government as "the enemy"?

[Vladd44]

To save a life, yes.
If you have Jews hiding in you attic, yes.
If your wife or girlfriend asks "am I beautiful", yes.

Note to self.

If Cathar's wife or gf asks me if she is beautiful the correct line is.....

"Yes baby, your beatiful, now come back to bed."

[Cathar1950]

To save a life, yes.
If you have Jews hiding in you attic, yes.
If your wife or girlfriend asks "am I beautiful", yes.

Note to self.

If Cathar's wife or gf asks me if she is beautiful the correct line is.....

"Yes baby, your beatiful, now come back to bed."

I don't really have either but treat them nice.
If I ever do date again I will keep my eye on you.
I quess I do have a few girl friends but I am not the jealous type.
Most of them are married. They tell me when I need a hair cut.
They are always taking me with them and I tell them I don't need a girl friend or wife because hey do just fine when ever I do something stupid or forget to tie my shoes.

[twobitsmedia]

What, exactly, are the "limits of lying"? To whom can one lie without it being wrong?

If your wife looks like crap on a bad day, I wouldn't tell her she looks like crap because I thought it was wrong for me to lie. It's more of a situational judgment call. I wouldn't sit and make up stories about events that never happened in my life just to make myself sound important because that would be "bearing a false witness." Or perjury. I do not think "bearing false witness" and "lying" are equal in meaning. I have seen young Christians interpret the commandment that way and ended up being just rude and obnoxious.

Are those limits specified in the bible or are they made up by "interpreters"? Who is authorized to give the "official version"?

I suppose they can be, but I choose to believe they are subjective. And I am not sure what you mean by "official version"

Are we always entitled to lie to protect private information? Is it "not wrong" to lie to the government to protect private information -- if one considers the government as "the enemy"?

I believe we are entitled to withhold information that is not anyone elses business. The problem with the government is that they believe everything is their business and they are backing their "beliefs" up with legislation all the time designed to force us to give them information or designed so they can collect it without you knowing they have it (welcome to the information age).

[Zzyzx]

I believe we are entitled to withhold information that is not anyone elses business. The problem with the government is that they believe everything is their business and they are backing their "beliefs" up with legislation all the time designed to force us to give them information or designed so they can collect it without you knowing they have it (welcome to the information age).

Is withholding information (or failure to divulge) the same as lying?

Does a religious moral code permit giving false information to the government if we consider the requested information to represent an infringement on our privacy?

Is lying to the government different than lying to a friend, a banker, a car salesman, a preacher, a spouse?