Divorce

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:26 pm

Although we have a very large problem with divorce in our countries, strictly speaking, would it actually be better for society if the option of divorce didn't exist at all?

Post by **otseng** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:34 pm

I wouldn't go so far as to prohibit divorce entirely. But divorce has become way too easy. Esp with no fault divorces. Marriages are no longer viewed as a commitment. Instead of people trying to work things out, they open the quick escape hatch and abandon the relationship.

Quarkhead · Post by **Quarkhead** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 5:15 pm

It's easy to say divorce is too easy, but is that really the problem, or is that merely one of the effects of a more central cause?

How should divorce be harder? What should the criteria be? I'm afraid this doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that the question might be "why are we becoming more selfish?" The problem is not that divorce is too easy or too hard - the problem is in our lack of willingness to accept a scope of existence or importance beyond ourselves.

Given this, even partially, I would have to say that no way should divorce not be an option. For one, children and mothers will benefit more from divorce than from being forced to stay in a physically or sexually abusive marriage.

Corvus · Post by **Corvus** » Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:50 pm

Quarkhead took the words right out of my mouth. Let's extend the scope of this debate and allow me to ask you, otseng, what do you think the criteria for divorce should be?

Post by **otseng** » Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:19 pm

It's easy to say divorce is too easy, but is that really the problem, or is that merely one of the effects of a more central cause?

No, I wouldn't say that's really the problem, but it is a problem. I would agree that there are deeper problems. But no fault divorces just makes divorce too tempting to pursue.

what do you think the criteria for divorce should be?

I've never really thought what should be the criteria. But, it'd be interesting to pursue this thought.

Jesus said that the only cause for divorce would be fornication.

Matt 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

So, based on this, this would be the only acceptable criteria.

Quarkhead · Post by **Quarkhead** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 1:13 am

I've never really thought what should be the criteria. But, it'd be interesting to pursue this thought.

Jesus said that the only cause for divorce would be fornication.

Matt 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

So, based on this, this would be the only acceptable criteria.

Should an abused wife simply have to put up with her abusive spouse? Should she even have to jump through a bunch of hoops? It's often very, very difficult for abused women to come forward about their home life. Isn't it better if she can just file for divorce without having to 'prove' the abuse to see if it meets the criteria (whatever they may be)?

To me, the ease of divorce is not a problem at all. The problem is in the hearts and minds of the people who see marriage as so casual or who see the pursuit of their personal dreams as superceding the idea of commitment and unconditional agape.

If we try and fix this problem by making divorce more difficult, we're really not solving the problem at all - and in fact we are exacerbating the problem for people who have legitimate reasons for seeking divorce.

Post by **otseng** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 9:24 am

Quarkhead wrote: Should an abused wife simply have to put up with her abusive spouse?
Should she even have to jump through a bunch of hoops?

But, what is the true solution to an abusive situation? Divorce is just a patch and doesn't address the underlying problems either.

It's easy to just hire a divorce attorney, shell out several hundred bucks, and break the relationship. And since it's so easy to do that, it's the path of least resistance and people will naturally want to go down that path.

The more difficult thing to do, but the more constructive thing to do, is to find out for the reason of the abuse. I'm not saying this is easy. But if an abusive man gets divorced, odds are he'll still remain abusive with the next wife. And futhermore pass the abuse pattern to the next generation.

The problem is in the hearts and minds of the people who see marriage as so casual or who see the pursuit of their personal dreams as superceding the idea of commitment and unconditional agape.

Like you said, the true issue is the heart. And though people should view a marriage as a lifetime commitment, people rarely commit to anything to more than a few years anymore. And also people don't know how to address the deep issues of the heart: anger, bitterness, generational sins, etc. Such easy patches as divorce is not doing society any good.

Quarkhead · Post by **Quarkhead** » Fri Feb 20, 2004 10:26 pm

It's easy to just hire a divorce attorney, shell out several hundred bucks, and break the relationship. And since it's so easy to do that, it's the path of least resistance and people will naturally want to go down that path.

The more difficult thing to do, but the more constructive thing to do, is to find out for the reason of the abuse. I'm not saying this is easy. But if an abusive man gets divorced, odds are he'll still remain abusive with the next wife. And futhermore pass the abuse pattern to the next generation.

I disagree. How is it easier to find a lawyer and shell out money, than to do nothing? Of course the path of least resistance is the status quo.

Furthermore, why should the onus of solving an abuse situation fall on the woman, even in part? What you're saying might be ideal, but in practice, why should an abused woman have to endure possibly more abuse? The best thing she can do is just get out of the situation.

Overall, I think there are two different things here. In the case of abused women (or men), I think that the abused spouse should definitely be able to get out without any hassle whatsoever.

However, when we are talking about ordinary relationships, I think we can agree that people opt for divorce waaaay too quickly these days. I remain completely unconvinced, however, that the answer is to raise the barriers to divorce - because I absolutely think that is not the cause.

I think that this thread could be very interesting, if we decide to pursue what the cause(s) of the rising divorce rate might be, rather than focusing on what seems to me a red herring, or at best, a side issue.

Post by **otseng** » Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:50 am

Quarkhead wrote: I disagree. How is it easier to find a lawyer and shell out money, than to do nothing? Of course the path of least resistance is the status quo.

OK, we'll leave it that we disagree about this and move on.

I think that this thread could be very interesting, if we decide to pursue what the cause(s) of the rising divorce rate might be, rather than focusing on what seems to me a red herring, or at best, a side issue.

Some other things that come to mind of rising divorce rate:
- Prevalence of short-term attitude. Rarely do we see long-term commitments to anything anymore. People do not live in neighborhoods very long, let along even meet their neighbors. Relationships are very transient and friends quickly come and go. We are a throw away society and do not invest in fixing things that we do have. If it's broke, throw it away.
- Lower limit of pain threshold. People, in our modern world, have become too sensitive to pain. How many types of pain tablets do we really need? People in other countries with a high level of pain threshold (India, China) are able to deal with problems better.
- Emphasis on materialism rather than relationships. As a society, we are too consumed with materialism. We would rather spend our time and energies pursuing accumlating stuff, than nurturing relationships.
- Destruction of extended family. Problems are much easier to go through if you have close relatives to support you. Just to carry on the responsibilities of life, it's easier when you have other family members to help (grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc). Asian countries have a high emphasis on the extended family and have a lower divorce rate.
- Throwing out of God in marriages. In the past, people viewed marriages as a vow to each other, to God, and to the church. Marriage was the first institution created by God and His original idea. People no longer view it as a covenant and that breaking it is serious in the eyes of God.

Piper Plexed · Post by **Piper Plexed** » Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:47 pm

Quarkhead
Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 10:15 pm

How should divorce be harder? What should the criteria be? I'm afraid this doesn't make sense to me. It seems to me that the question might be "why are we becoming more selfish?" The problem is not that divorce is too easy or too hard - the problem is in our lack of willingness to accept a scope of existence or importance beyond ourselves.

I have to agree, there is absolutely nothing easy about divorce today. When faced with the possibility of divorce I was forced to weigh my needs to the needs of my children then asses if the marriage was salvageable. One also has to address the reality, if one cannot forgive or in some cases compromise exactly what level of happiness will there be for all concerned and the detrimental effects on the children. I can't imagine anyone taking such a life altering step lightly. I must add if put in an abusive situation and my partner was unwilling or unable to seek help and cease his abusive behavior then I would have no other solution than to divorce him, in the best interest of the children. Now if my husband cheated

Matt 5:32 "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

which appears to be the accepted basis for divorce, I would be more apt to soul search and he would have a greater chance of me staying in the marriage. Of course the behavior must cease, in truth I would be the only person hurt by this behavior (not the children) so I would consider it a less dire situation.