How the Bible fails

[Compassionist]

1. Astronomy & Cosmology: pre-scientific mythology

The Bible reflects an ancient Near Eastern cosmology, not hidden advanced knowledge:

Flat or dome-covered Earth (the firmament)

Waters above the sky

Sun, moon, and stars placed inside the firmament

Earth established before stars

Light existing before light sources

This isn’t “metaphor misunderstood later.”
It’s exactly what you’d expect from pre-astronomical humans with no telescopes, no physics, no cosmology.

A being who created galaxies would not accidentally endorse Bronze Age sky myths.

2. Physics: magical causation and category errors

Biblical physics routinely violates conservation laws, thermodynamics, and basic causality:

Matter appearing without physical mechanism

Instantaneous global floods

Heat, light, and motion without sources

Supernatural suspension of physical regularities without constraints

These aren’t exceptions explained by deeper laws.
They are storytelling devices, indistinguishable from myth.

3. Biology: creationism and biological impossibilities

The Bible gets biology wrong in structural ways:

Fixed “kinds” instead of common descent

Humans formed separately from animals

No understanding of genetics, evolution, extinction, deep time

Global bottlenecks that would have destroyed biodiversity

This is not a matter of missing details.
It reflects zero awareness of how life actually works.

4. Ethics: tribal morality, not universal compassion

Biblical ethics are deeply inconsistent and often morally indefensible:

Genocide endorsed

Slavery regulated, not abolished

Women treated as property

Children punished for ancestral sins

Infinite punishment for finite “belief errors”

These are not moral heights we failed to reach.
They are moral baselines we have since outgrown.

The best ethical moments in the Bible come from humans pushing against its own framework, not from divine command.

5. History: legendary development, not eyewitness rigor

The Bible fails basic historical standards:

Anonymous authorship

Decades-to-centuries-late composition

Theological agendas driving narrative

Contradictory accounts

No contemporary corroboration for central miracles

What we see is exactly what we see in myth formation everywhere else:
oral tradition → embellishment → canonization → dogma.

6. The pattern matters more than any single error

Any one mistake could be excused.

But the Bible fails:

astronomy,

physics,

biology,

ethics,

and history,

systematically, in the same direction, at the same level, with the same cultural fingerprints.

That pattern is diagnostic.

It looks exactly like what it is: a collection of human texts written by sincere but ignorant people trying to explain the world before science existed.

7. Why this matters morally

I care about reducing suffering and death, not about defending meaning or tradition.

That’s crucial.

Texts that:

misdescribe reality,

misassign blame,

moralize ignorance,

and sanctify error,

don’t just fail intellectually — they cause harm.

Religious certainty built on false premises has:

justified violence,

delayed medicine,

stigmatized illness,

excused cruelty,

and obstructed progress.

Rejecting that isn’t nihilism.
It’s ethical seriousness.

[1213]

How the Bible fails....

why do you expect people to replace their beliefs with your beliefs?

[Compassionist]

How the Bible fails....

why do you expect people to replace their beliefs with your beliefs?

I don't expect anyone to do anything. When have I said that others should replace their beliefs with mine? You shouldn't make assumptions.

[1213]

How the Bible fails....

why do you expect people to replace their beliefs with your beliefs?

I don't expect anyone to do anything. When have I said that others should replace their beliefs with mine? You shouldn't make assumptions.

Bible "fails" only, if one accepts your beliefs as facts. If one does not accept them, your post fails, if the purpose was to prove the Bible fails.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #4]

I didn't post my beliefs. I posted facts about how the Bible fails. You didn't refute the individual points I listed.

Please see: https://www.evilbible.com and https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/categories.html if you have the time to explore both websites in detail. If you don't have that much time, here are some of the reasons the Biblical God, if he/she/it/they exist(s), has done/is doing/will do more evil than good.

God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

If after eating the forbidden fruits, Adam and Eve died just as God had said, then that would have been just and consistent with God's Words. However, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruits, instead of just Adam and Eve just dying:
1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished Eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said to Adam and Eve which was they would just die if they ate the forbidden fruits. God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve.

If God had made Adam, Eve, the angels, all the other species all-knowing and all-powerful, then they would all be making perfect choices. It is 100% God's fault that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. If they were all-knowing and all-powerful, they would not have the desire to gain knowledge, as they would already have known everything there is to know.

I didn't ask to come into existence. No living thing does. I would have preferred it if I had never existed. If God is real and actually did the things the Bible claims, then these cruel, unjust and inconsistent actions make the Biblical God evil.

Global genocide - The Global Flood

Genesis 6:13, 7:21-23 (ESV)

“And God said to Noah, ‘I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’ … And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.”
Summary: God kills virtually every living creature on Earth, sparing only Noah's family and the selected animals in Noah's Ark.

Genocide of Sodom and Gomorrah

Genesis 19:24-25 (ESV)

“Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.”
Summary: Two entire cities are burned alive - men, women, and children - for collective sin.

The Ten Plagues of Egypt (mass suffering and death)

Exodus 12:29-30 (ESV)

“At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of the livestock. And Pharaoh rose up in the night … and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a house where someone was not dead.”
Summary: Every Egyptian firstborn - including infants, sentient animals and prisoners - is killed by God.

Genocides ordered in Canaan

Deuteronomy 20:16-17 (ESV)

“But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, but you shall devote them to complete destruction, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the LORD your God has commanded.”
Summary: Explicit divine command to exterminate entire populations.

1 Samuel 15:2-3 (ESV)

“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel … Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Summary: A total genocide command including infants and animals.

Slavery sanctioned and regulated, instead of banned

Leviticus 25:44-46 (ESV)

“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. … You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers … you shall not rule one over another ruthlessly.”
Summary: Permanent enslavement of foreigners is explicitly permitted.

Human child sacrifice ordered (later revoked)

Genesis 22:2, 12 (ESV)

“He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering…’”
“He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the boy…’”
Summary: God tests Abraham by commanding the killing of his child - a psychological act of cruelty, even if halted. Why would an all-knowing and all-powerful being need to test anyone? It makes no sense.

Mass slaughter of boys, men and non-virgin women and sexual slavery of virgin girls

Numbers 31:17-18 (ESV)

“Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.”
Summary: Command to kill boys and non-virgin women; keep virgin girls as sex slaves.

Sevenfold punishment and cannibalism (threat)

Leviticus 26:27-29 (ESV)

“But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.”
Summary: God threatens to make His people resort to cannibalism as punishment.

Eternal torment in Hell

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

“He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath … and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.”

Mark 9:43-48 (ESV)

“It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire … where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Summary: Eternal conscious torment for unbelievers - infinite punishment for finite crimes.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Revelation 20:10 (ESV)

“...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Luke 13:27-28 (ESV)

“But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.”

Matthew 13:49-50 (ESV)

“So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Divine deception and hardening of hearts

Exodus 9:12 (ESV)

“But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.”
Summary: God prevents Pharaoh from repenting, then punishes him for it.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (ESV)

“Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”
Summary: God intentionally deceives some people.

Killing for minor offenses

Numbers 15:32-36 (ESV)

“While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day… And the LORD said to Moses, ‘The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.’”

2 Kings 2:23-24 (ESV)

“He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.”
Summary: Death penalty for collecting firewood on the wrong day, and 42 small boys murdered by bears because they made fun of a prophet's baldness.

Collective punishment across generations

Exodus 20:5 (ESV)

“For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.”
Summary: Descendants are punished for ancestors’ actions - contrary to the Bible’s own later law: “The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.” - Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV).

Predestination

Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV)

“Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”

John 6:44 (ESV)

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
Summary: God predestined who would be saved and who would be damned forever. It is absurd and utterly cruel and unjust.

Conclusion

These verses show that the Biblical God, by the Bible’s own words, kills entire populations, including children and animals, endorses slavery, inflicts suffering, threatens eternal torture in hell, hardens hearts or deceives minds, and predestinates who would be saved and who would be damned, removing moral responsibility.

When the acts attributed to God are judged by the same moral standards the Bible applies to humans - such as “You shall not kill,” “Love your neighbour,” and “Love your enemies” - they fit the description of moral evil far more often than benevolence. The Biblical God is a hypocrite who has killed and has failed to love his neighbours and enemies.

That’s why I conclude that, if the Biblical God exists and the Biblical text is true, His recorded actions are predominantly evil rather than good.

There are also extra-Biblical reasons. At least 99.9% of all the species that have existed so far on Earth are already extinct. Every year, non-vegans cause suffering and death to 80 billion sentient land organisms (e.g. cattle, chickens, pigs, lambs, goats, ducks, turkeys, etc.) and 1 to 3 trillion sentient aquatic organisms (e.g. fish, lobsters, octopuses, crabs, etc.). Life is full of suffering, injustice, and death. An allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful being, such as the Biblical God, could have prevented all suffering, injustice, and death, but failed to do so. He could have made all organisms made of energy that don't need to consume anything to live forever, but he didn't do that. So, all suffering, injustice, and death are his fault. If he had not created anything, no one would have the burden of existence or the risk of making mistakes. If he had made everyone he had made all-knowing and all-powerful, then everyone would always make perfect choices, and no one would have made any mistakes due to ignorance or incompetence or trickery.

I am an agnostic regarding the existence of God(s) because it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God(s). However, I am convinced that the Biblical God is imaginary and evil. He is imaginary because there is no evidence for the claims made in the Bible. He is evil because of his many evil words and actions in the Bible. I created a thread requesting evidence for Biblical events: viewtopic.php?t=42683 If you can prove Biblical events by evidence, please do. The Bible doesn't count as evidence for the claims in the Bible, just as other religious books don't count as evidence for the claims in those religious books.

[1213]

I didn't post my beliefs. I posted facts about how the Bible fails.

You believe they are facts. If one does not have fate in you and believe they are facts, the "facts" are not working.

Please see: https://www.evilbible.com and https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/categories.html if you have the time to explore both websites in detail. If you don't have that much time, here are some of the reasons the Biblical God, if he/she/it/they exist(s), has done/is doing/will do more evil than good.

It seems good and evil are just opinions. If you think God is evil, I am not surprised. I don't think God is evil. And I think your arguments fail mostly because I think they are not truthful.

God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve

In Genesis 2:16 and 17 the Bible (New International Version) says:
And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

If after eating the forbidden fruits, Adam and Eve died just as God had said, then that would have been just and consistent with God's Words. However, after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruits, instead of just Adam and Eve just dying:
1. God evicted them from Eden.
2. God punished Eve and all her daughters (an estimated 54 billion and counting) with painful childbirths.
3. God evicted all the other species from Eden, too, and makes herbivores, parasites, carnivores and omnivores instead of making all the species non-consumers.
4. God punished humans with having to toil to survive.
5. God commanded humans to reproduce which leads to more suffering and death. Ruling over other creatures causes suffering and death to those creatures, too. "God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."" - Genesis 1:28, The Bible (NIV)

These acts are cruel and unjust and totally inconsistent with what God had said to Adam and Eve which was they would just die if they ate the forbidden fruits. God didn't keep his words to Adam and Eve.

1. If we are accurate, God said "dying thou shalt die" Gen. 2:17, which means by death you shall die. This "life" can be called the first death, where people die. Their death started that day and it lasted some time. Also, it was said, "that day", which can mean one of God's days that are more than human days, if we believe the Bible. Obviously you can ignore all this for your strawman argument, but I think it only discredits you.

But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Pet. 3:8

2. God told Eve "I will greatly increase your sorrow and your conception" Gen. 3:16. It is not said to all women. And it can be just from that people are expelled from the paradise, where it could have been easier. It does not necessary mean God added something. And by how I know God, I don't believe He for example made some modification so that it would be more painful. I believe it was just a consequence of their own choice.

3. I don't think there is anything in the Bible that supports your claim.

4. Humans wanted to know evil like God, now we can know. Would have been more reasonable to learn by the easier way. Luckily this is only a short lesson and those who are or become righteous have chance to get back to life.

5. God has not said that people should act ruthlessly. Reproducing and ruling does not mean one have to do bad things.

If God had made Adam, Eve, the angels, all the other species all-knowing and all-powerful, then they would all be making perfect choices.

Only if they would want to do so. All knowledge and all powerfulness doesn't necessary mean one chooses good. And I believe that is why we don't have those qualities, but instead we have this lesson about good and evil.

It is 100% God's fault that Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge. If they were all-knowing and all-powerful, they would not have the desire to gain knowledge, as they would already have known everything there is to know.

I don't think it was about knowledge. The woman wanted to become like the God and the man wanted to please the woman. And that is why they rejected God and we ended up to this "Matrix". If they woudl have wanted to know, they could have just asked directly from God anything.

Even if they would have had all the knowledge, the woman could still have wanted to "broke the glass sealing" and replace God.

I didn't ask to come into existence. No living thing does. I would have preferred it if I had never existed....

How would you have known? I think it shows the greatness and goodness of God that He gives this chance to all. And now, if after this very short experience you want to be non existent, I think you can have that and I think it is really nice from God to let you have what you want and not force you to be with him.

Global genocide - The Global Flood

Genesis 6:13, 7:21-23 (ESV)

“And God said to Noah, ‘I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’ … And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, livestock, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all mankind. Everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died.”
Summary: God kills virtually every living creature on Earth, sparing only Noah's family and the selected animals in Noah's Ark....

So, you think evil people should be allowed to live forever and make life eternal torment for everyone?

Slavery sanctioned and regulated, instead of banned

Leviticus 25:44-46 (ESV)

“As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. … You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers … you shall not rule one over another ruthlessly.”
Summary: Permanent enslavement of foreigners is explicitly permitted.

Slavery by Biblical rules was possible only if the people accepted it freely. I don't see why it would have to be banned, if it is accepted by both parties.

Human child sacrifice ordered (later revoked)

Genesis 22:2, 12 (ESV)

“He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering…’”
“He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the boy…’”
Summary: God tests Abraham by commanding the killing of his child - a psychological act of cruelty, even if halted. Why would an all-knowing and all-powerful being need to test anyone? It makes no sense.

Abraham knew his son could not die, because God had made the promise for him for offspring. And I believe it was meant to be a lesson for humans, to trust God.

....Command to kill boys and non-virgin women; keep virgin girls as sex slaves.

Bible does not speak about sex slaves, that is an idea that comes from your own mind. You might make them sex slaves, no reason to think the Jews would have done that.

Sevenfold punishment and cannibalism (threat)

Leviticus 26:27-29 (ESV)

“But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.”
Summary: God threatens to make His people resort to cannibalism as punishment.

He tells what they will do, not that He makes them do it.

Eternal torment in Hell

If we believe Jesus, evil people are utterly destroyed in hell. I don't think those who are destroyed and without life feel or do anything. But, do you think God should let evil people live forever? Why?

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [hell].
Matt. 10:28
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Divine deception and hardening of hearts

Exodus 9:12 (ESV)

“But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.”
Summary: God prevents Pharaoh from repenting, then punishes him for it.

The hardening of heart happened by ending plagues. If you think God should not have hardened pharaohs heart, it means you think the plagues should have continued forever. Not very nice from you.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (ESV)
“Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”
Summary: God intentionally deceives some people.

I find you very deceiving. I think it would be good to read the whole chapter, before making such accusations. Firstly, it is said don't be deceived. Secondly, it is those who are not truthful who are deceived. Why are they deceived, because they don't like the truth. And it happens, because God allows them to have something else than truth. It does not mean God deceived, nor that God wants anyone to be deceived.

...Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, proclaiming that he himself is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you? And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst. And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and He will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miracles and lying wonders, and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved. And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie, that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

Killing for minor offenses

Numbers 15:32-36 (ESV)

“While the people of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day… And the LORD said to Moses, ‘The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.’”

It is not directly told that it was just gathering of the sticks that was the reason for the punishment. I believe it was because the man was unrighteous.

2 Kings 2:23-24 (ESV)

“He went up from there to Bethel, and while he was going up on the way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him, saying, “Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!” And he turned around, and when he saw them, he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.”
Summary: Death penalty for collecting firewood on the wrong day, and 42 small boys murdered by bears because they made fun of a prophet's baldness.

It was bear that killed them. Bible does not say God sent them to do the job.

Collective punishment across generations

Exodus 20:5 (ESV)

“For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.”....

Those who hate Him do things that are wrong and that is why they get the punishment. It does not come because of what someone else did, but because they do the same things.

Predestination

Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV)
“Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”
John 6:44 (ESV)
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”
Summary: God predestined who would be saved and who would be damned forever. It is absurd and utterly cruel and unjust.

that it is predestined for example that righteous into eternal life, does not mean that some people are predestined to be righteous. People can choose their path, and if they choose well, the path is destined to lead to good end.

Conclusion
When the acts attributed to God are judged by the same moral standards the Bible applies to humans - such as “You shall not kill,” ...

It is actually, "don't murder". God has given life, therefore He has also the right to decide how long it lasts. And no one has done anything to deserve even a short life. I don't think it is wrong, if God gives eternal life only for righteous.

There are also extra-Biblical reasons. At least 99.9% of all the species that have existed so far on Earth are already extinct. Every year, non-vegans cause suffering and death to 80 billion sentient land organisms (e.g. cattle, chickens, pigs, lambs, goats, ducks, turkeys, etc.) and 1 to 3 trillion sentient aquatic organisms (e.g. fish, lobsters, octopuses, crabs, etc.). Life is full of suffering, injustice, and death. An allegedly all-knowing and all-powerful being, such as the Biblical God, could have prevented all suffering, injustice, and death, but failed to do so. He could have made all organisms made of energy that don't need to consume anything to live forever, but he didn't do that. So, all suffering, injustice, and death are his fault. If he had not created anything, no one would have the burden of existence or the risk of making mistakes.

Do you think plants are not sentient?

I think things were better in the beginning, then God was rejected and many painful things came possible. But, I also think this is just a short lesson about good and evil. Those who are righteous, have chance to get back to life where all suffering is compensated. That is why I don't have a problem, even if someone suffers unjustly.

He is imaginary because there is no evidence for the claims made in the Bible.

I think life and the Bible are the evidence for God. Bible, because I don't think people could have done it one their own and life, because it doesn't appear from non organic stuff on its own.

I created a thread requesting evidence for Biblical events: viewtopic.php?t=42683 If you can prove Biblical events by evidence, please do. The Bible doesn't count as evidence for the claims in the Bible, just as other religious books don't count as evidence for the claims in those religious books.

I think nothing would count for evidence for you, so it is pointless. And also, in Biblical point of view the idea is to become righteous, not a believer of evidence. If evidence doesn't make you righteous, it is not useful.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #6]

You believe they are facts. If one does not have fate in you and believe they are facts, the "facts" are not working.

This confuses epistemology with psychology.
Facts do not stop being facts because someone lacks faith in the person presenting them. Geological facts remain true even if a flat-earther rejects them. If a claim depends on belief to function, it is not a fact but a persuasion attempt. My argument is not “believe me,” but “explain these textual failures.” They remain whether you accept them or not. My commitment is to truth and ethics. The best way to know what is true is through evidence. My worldview is based on truth and ethics, not faith in a self-contradictory, inaccurate and evil Bible.

It seems good and evil are just opinions.

This collapses moral language entirely.
No, good and evil are not just opinions. Torturing sentient beings is always evil. Rescuing sentient beings from the torturers is always good. It's not a matter of arbitrary opinion. The Bible itself treats good and evil as objective, binding standards — God commands, judges, punishes, and condemns. You cannot simultaneously claim morality is “just opinion” and defend a God who enforces moral law with death, floods, plagues, and hell. Moral relativism destroys Biblical justice from the inside.

“dying thou shalt die” … one day can mean a thousand years

This is post-hoc semantic repair.
Genesis gives a clear causal warning: eat → die. Adam lives centuries. Later reinterpretations do not fix failed predictions; they reinterpret them. If “that day” can mean any length of time, the warning becomes unfalsifiable and meaningless. A warning that cannot be wrong conveys no information.

God did not necessarily add pain; it was just consequence

Genesis 3:16 explicitly says:
“I will greatly increase your pain in childbearing.”

This is direct causation, not passive consequence.
The text does not say “pain happened”; it says God actively imposed it. Denying the text to defend God concedes my point: the text morally indicts the deity it describes.

I don’t think the Bible supports your claim about animals

Genesis 1–3 explicitly depicts a pre-Fall herbivorous world. Predation, parasites, and mass extinction are post-Fall realities. If the Fall explains carnivory, then billions of animals are punished for a human act they did not commit.

Punishing all living things because of the mistake of two humans is fundamentally unjust.

Reproducing and ruling does not mean doing bad things

Intent is irrelevant to outcome.
Ruling over sentient beings predictably causes suffering. An all-knowing creator would foresee this. Foreseeable harm knowingly allowed is morally attributable to the one who designed the system.

All-knowing beings could still choose evil

Then omniscience does not improve moral reliability, making its absence irrelevant. This defeats the free-will defense. Either knowledge helps prevent error (in which case God withheld it), or it doesn’t (in which case the defense collapses).

Adam and Eve could have just asked God

They lacked moral knowledge by design. Expecting informed consent from cognitively limited beings is incoherent. Creating vulnerable agents and blaming them for vulnerability is entrapment, not justice.

If you want non-existence, God kindly allows it

Non-existence cannot be chosen after existence is imposed.
Consent obtained after irreversible imposition is not consent. Creating beings without asking them and later offering annihilation does not justify the initial coercion.

Should evil people live forever?

This is a false dilemma.
The alternatives are not “eternal torment” vs “unchecked evil.” Non-violent containment, rehabilitation, or non-creation all avoid infinite harm. Flooding the planet — including infants and animals — is neither justice nor restraint.

Slavery was accepted freely

Leviticus 25 explicitly permits permanent ownership of foreigners as inheritable property. This is fundamentally unjust towards foreigners.

Property cannot consent.
Children born into slavery never consent. War captives never consent. “Voluntary slavery” is irrelevant to a law that legalizes permanent ownership of humans.

Abraham knew Isaac would not die

Then the test was deception.
An all-knowing God does not need tests. A test that relies on psychological terror while foreknowing the outcome is not moral instruction — it is emotional cruelty.

The Bible does not speak about sex slaves

Numbers 31 explicitly commands God's followers to kill males and non-virgin women while keeping virgin girls for themselves. This is sexual slavery. If non-Christians murdered all Christian males and non-virgin Christian females and kept only Christian virgin girls for themselves to have sex with, you would not call that ethical. Please don't use double standards and be ethically consistent.

Taking captive girls after killing their families has only one realistic implication.
Moral evasions do not erase contextual reality.

God only predicts cannibalism; He doesn’t cause it

Threatening famine as punishment while claiming innocence for its effects is moral laundering. If I starve a population and say “they chose to eat their children,” responsibility still lies with me.

Hell is annihilation; should evil live forever?

Annihilation without consent is still lethal punishment.
Destroying beings you created because they failed under conditions you designed is not justice. It is authorship of failure followed by erasure of evidence.

Besides, hell is NOT annihilation. It is eternal torture according to the following Bible verses:

Matthew 25:46 (ESV)

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 14:10-11 (ESV)

“He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath … and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.”

Mark 9:43-48 (ESV)

“It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire … where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
Summary: Eternal conscious torment for unbelievers - infinite punishment for finite crimes.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’”

Revelation 20:10 (ESV)

“...and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Luke 13:27-28 (ESV)

“But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.”

Matthew 13:49-50 (ESV)

“So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

God hardened Pharaoh’s heart by ending plagues

Exodus explicitly says:
“The LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart.”

Exodus 9:12 (ESV)

“But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.”

The text assigns causation to God. Rewriting it as indirect consequence again concedes that the text itself is morally indefensible.

God does not deceive; people deceive themselves

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (ESV)

“Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”

2 Thessalonians 2:11 explicitly says God sends delusion.

Allowing deception ≠ sending deception. The text attributes agency to God. If you reject that, you reject scriptural inerrancy.

It wasn’t just gathering sticks; the man was unrighteous

The text gives no such qualification. Adding hidden crimes is speculation to rescue the narrative.

God didn’t send the bears

The curse was invoked “in the name of the LORD” and immediately followed by lethal outcome. So, yes, God sent the bears. Why else would bears suddenly appear and murder the kids?

Invoking divine authority for lethal harm still implicates the authority invoked.

Punishment follows shared behavior, not ancestry

Exodus 20 explicitly says punishment extends across generations.

Exodus 20:5 (ESV)

“For I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me.”

Predestination doesn’t mean people are predestined

Yes, it does. Please read the following Bible verses:

Ephesians 1:4-5, 11: God chose believers in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestined them for adoption according to His purpose.

Romans 8:29-30: Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, leading to calling, justification, and glorification.

Romans 9:11, 15-16, 21: Highlights election based on God's will rather than works, comparing God to a potter who makes vessels for honorable or dishonorable use.

Acts 13:48: States that "all who were appointed for eternal life believed".

John 15:16: Jesus says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you".

2 Timothy 1:9: God saved and called us according to His purpose and grace, given in Christ before time began.

Romans 9:18: God has mercy on whomever He wills and hardens whomever He wills.

Matthew 11:27: Salvation is revealed only to those whom the Son chooses to reveal it.

Ephesians 2:8-9: Salvation is a gift from God, not from oneself or works.

God can kill because He gives life

This is ownership morality.

By this logic, parents may kill their children because they caused the existence of their children. The Bible explicitly forbids this logic for humans, making divine exemption arbitrary and special pleading.

Do you think plants aren’t sentient?

No evidence supports plant sentience comparable to animals. This is deflection. Even if plants were sentient, it would increase — not reduce — the moral problem of creation.

This suffering is a short lesson

A lesson requiring genocide, extinction, torture, famine, disease, and trillions of sentient beings' deaths is not a lesson — it is a failure of design. 99.9% of all the species that have existed so far on Earth are already extinct. The dead are not learning a lesson.

An omniscient and omnipotent teacher does not need massive suffering, injustice, and death as pedagogy.

Life and the Bible are evidence for God

Life existing does not prove the existence of the Biblical God. The creation stories in the Bible don't match what we know through science. In fact, science contradicts what the Bible says. The Bible is the claim, not the evidence. Other religions make their own assertions with contradictory scriptures. All religious books make claims - they can't all be true, but they can all be false. The arbiter of truth is evidence. The Bible and all the other religious books fail the test of evidence.

Nothing would count as evidence for you

False.
Independent, contemporaneous corroboration would count — as it does in every other historical inquiry. I have changed my mind many times when I came across new evidence. That's what scientists do. We change our positions based on new evidence. If you can show incontrovertible evidence for the claims made in the Bible, I will change my position about the Bible. I am inviting you to show me evidence.

What does not count is circular evidence i.e. a book claims that it is true and accepting the claim because it says so even though the claims are not proven with actual evidence from outside the book.

Final Point

Every defense you offer relies on:
• redefining words after the fact
• denying plain textual meaning
• moral exemptions unavailable to humans
• or dismissing suffering as acceptable collateral

None resolves the core issue:

A being described as all-knowing and all-powerful is morally responsible for a system saturated with unnecessary suffering, injustice, and death.

That is not an opinion. It is a structural conclusion.

[1213]

… My worldview is based on truth and ethics, not faith in a self-contradictory, inaccurate and evil Bible.

By what I see, your opinions about the Bible are not based on truth and you offer lot of strawman arguments or false dichotomies.

If you think the Bible is evil and inaccurate for you, I can accept that as your opinion. I don’t think it is. But, if you claim the Bible is self-contradictory, I think that is a false claim and I don’t think you can prove it.

No, good and evil are not just opinions. Torturing sentient beings is always evil.

I can agree that torturing is wrong. But there are many who disagree with that. In their opinion it is right in some situations. We could debate about is it right or wrong, but in the end, it is just an opinion, because people can disagree with it.

Rescuing sentient beings from the torturers is always good. It's not a matter of arbitrary opinion.

What do you mean with sentient, something that can detect what happens near it? Is for example a robot sentient?

The Bible itself treats good and evil as objective, binding standards — God commands, judges, punishes, and condemns. You cannot simultaneously claim morality is “just opinion” and defend a God who enforces moral law with death, floods, plagues, and hell. Moral relativism destroys Biblical justice from the inside.

Bible shows what is God’s idea about good and right. And I think it is good. But you and many others disagree with it. Because people can disagree with it, it is matter of opinion. Doesn’t mean it is wrong, only that people can have different opinions about what is good.

Genesis gives a clear causal warning: eat → die. Adam lives centuries. Later reinterpretations do not fix failed predictions; they reinterpret them. If “that day” can mean any length of time, the warning becomes unfalsifiable and meaningless. A warning that cannot be wrong conveys no information.

If we take it only as eat → die, it was correct, Adam ate and now he is dead.

Accurate word for word translation is not the same as later reinterpretation.

Bible shows right in the beginning that God counts days by some other way than sun. It is later interpretation to think it must have meant the day as you now understand it.

Regardless of how fast Adam died, he died, so the warning was valid.

God did not necessarily add pain; it was just consequence

Genesis 3:16 explicitly says:
“I will greatly increase your pain in childbearing.”

This is direct causation, not passive consequence.
The text does not say “pain happened”; it says God actively imposed it. Denying the text to defend God concedes my point: the text morally indicts the deity it describes.

The interpretation that God somehow modified woman to feel more pain is not well funded. The “increase pain” can mean, Eve was sent outside of the garden, where she would be without something that could have made childbearing not painful.

… Predation, parasites, and mass extinction are post-Fall realities. If the Fall explains carnivory, then billions of animals are punished for a human act they did not commit.

What Adam and Eve did, is not in my opinion reason why for example animals would have chosen to act violently. I believe all bad things in this world are the result of generally rejecting God. And this starts from the Satan. It has slowly led to all kind of atrocities that increase the further we go from the point when everything was good.

Then omniscience does not improve moral reliability, making its absence irrelevant.

Why would omniscience improve moral reliability? Even if person knows that something is not good, he could still want to do so.

They lacked moral knowledge by design. Expecting informed consent from cognitively limited beings is incoherent. Creating vulnerable agents and blaming them for vulnerability is entrapment, not justice.

There is really no Biblical reason to think they lacked moral knowledge. That serpent, the great liar, claims a tree gives some knowledge, does not mean that it really does so, nor that they lacked moral knowledge.

Also, they had all the necessary information to make a better choice. They were not vulnerable.

Should evil people live forever?

This is a false dilemma.
The alternatives are not “eternal torment” vs “unchecked evil.” Non-violent containment, rehabilitation, or non-creation all avoid infinite harm.

It is interesting that you cannot answer the question. I hoped answer to the question, should evil people live forever. The alternatives are, no or yes.

Containment is basically the same as death of evil. Rehabilitation is also basically the same as death, because the evil is removed.

Leviticus 25 explicitly permits permanent ownership of foreigners as inheritable property. This is fundamentally unjust towards foreigners.
…
Children born into slavery never consent. War captives never consent. “Voluntary slavery” is irrelevant to a law that legalizes permanent ownership of humans.

The Bible says that person who kidnaps others deserves death. So, you could not take someone against his will to be your slave. And Bible also tells, love your neighbour as yourself, which makes it impossible to keep someone as slave against his will.

An all-knowing God does not need tests.

I agree, but humans may need.

Numbers 31 explicitly commands God's followers to kill males and non-virgin women while keeping virgin girls for themselves. This is sexual slavery.

In your mind.

Threatening famine as punishment while claiming innocence for its effects is moral laundering. If I starve a population and say “they chose to eat their children,” responsibility still lies with me.

If people reject God, they reject also all good that comes with God. Why should God feed people who don’t want to be in any contact with God?

Destroying beings you created because they failed under conditions you designed is not justice.

So, you think God should not give this chance to people who choose evil?

Besides, hell is NOT annihilation. It is eternal torture according to the following Bible verses:…

Those show the hell is eternal fire that burns forever those that are in there. It is not said the people are alive there. To interpret them so that people are alive there is wrong in my opinion because eternal life is promised only for righteous. And the unrighteous are destroyed. How could someone who is utterly destroyed feel of do anything?

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna [= hell].
Matt. 10:28
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Exodus explicitly says:
“The LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart.”

Exodus 9:12 (ESV)
“But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.”

Bible shows how it happened. First by demanding Pharaoh to release the Jews, and after that by ending the plagues. There is no Biblical reason to think God somehow magically altered his mind.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (ESV)

“Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false.”
2 Thessalonians 2:11 explicitly says God sends delusion.

Allowing deception ≠ sending deception. The text attributes agency to God. If you reject that, you reject scriptural inerrancy.

This depends greatly on how the delusion is sent and what it means. For example, it could simply mean:
Jesus doesn’t return when people claim it should have happened -> People start thinking it will not happen -> People start to follow false teachings, because they didn't remain in truth. In that God does nothing wrong.

It wasn’t just gathering sticks; the man was unrighteous

The text gives no such qualification. Adding hidden crimes is speculation to rescue the narrative.

The Bible doesn’t directly say it was because of gathering sticks. It tells only that a man who gathered sticks, was judged. Claiming it was only because of gathering sticks is in my opinion baseless interpretation.

The curse was invoked “in the name of the LORD” and immediately followed by lethal outcome. So, yes, God sent the bears. Why else would bears suddenly appear and murder the kids?

It could be coincidence, or it could be because God was not protecting them anymore. In any case, Bible doesn’t say God sent them.

Exodus 20 explicitly says punishment extends across generations.

…. of those who hate me….

But not for those who don’t hate God and who don’t do things that are against God’s will.

Yes, it does. Please read the following Bible verses:

Ephesians 1:4-5, 11: God chose believers in Christ before the foundation of the world and predestined them for adoption according to His purpose….

Believers are chosen does not mean they were determined to be believers. It is their choice to believe.

By this logic, parents may kill their children because they caused the existence of their children.

No, because parents don’t give life, they give only birth, in a good case.

No evidence supports plant sentience comparable to animals. This is deflection. Even if plants were sentient, it would increase — not reduce — the moral problem of creation.

A sensor is sentient; it can detect something about what is around it. By what I know, also trees can do that and even react to what happens around them. Why would it be wrong to kill a sensor?

99.9% of all the species that have existed so far on Earth are already extinct.

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that.

An omniscient and omnipotent teacher does not need massive suffering, injustice, and death as pedagogy.

And you know that, because you are omniscient and omnipotent?

I don’t think it is because God needs it. It is because humans wanted it.

The creation stories in the Bible don't match what we know through science. In fact, science contradicts what the Bible says.

And as we know, science is not infallible. The history of science is full of errors.

I don’t think real science show anything that is contradicting the Bible. It confirms the Bible.

None resolves the core issue:

A being described as all-knowing and all-powerful is morally responsible for a system saturated with unnecessary suffering, injustice, and death.

That is not an opinion.

I think God is responsible and acts in a good way:
1) If someone suffers unjustly in this short lesson, it is compensated in eternal life
2) If someone is evil, he gets this chance to show why it is not good to let him live forever.

I would like to hear what do you think about this lesson form the book, The Song of the Bird, by Anthony De Mello. What do you think is the meaning of it?

[Compassionist]

[Replying to 1213 in post #8]

By what I see, your opinions about the Bible are not based on truth and you offer lot of strawman arguments or false dichotomies.

Simply asserting “strawman” does not demonstrate one. A strawman requires misrepresentation of the opponent’s position. I have quoted the text directly and analysed what it says. If you believe I misrepresented a passage, identify the specific misrepresentation. Otherwise, the charge is rhetorical, not substantive.

if you claim the Bible is self-contradictory, I think that is a false claim and I don’t think you can prove it.

The Bible contains numerous internal tensions. For example:

• God “does not tempt anyone” (James 1:13), yet God “tested Abraham” (Genesis 22:1).
• God is “not the author of confusion” (1 Corinthians 14:33), yet sends “strong delusion” (2 Thessalonians 2:11).
• Pharaoh hardens his heart (Exodus 8:15), and God hardens Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 9:12).

You may harmonize these, but harmonization is not the same as absence of tension. The burden is not on me to prove perfection wrong; it is on the inerrantist to prove perfection true. There are 560 contradictions listed on the Skeptic's Annotated Bible: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/firs ... _list.html

Because people can disagree with it, it is matter of opinion.

This is a logical error.

Disagreement does not imply subjectivity.

People disagree about whether the Earth is round. That does not make the Earth’s shape a matter of opinion. Facts are true even when some people deny facts such as the Earth is round and evolution is real.

If morality is merely opinion, then genocide, torture, and rape are only “disliked preferences.” That collapses justice entirely. Yet the Bible presupposes objective moral truth when it condemns sin and threatens punishment.

You cannot have:

• Moral relativism (it’s all opinion)
and
• Divine judgment (objective moral accountability)

Those positions contradict each other.

Regardless of how fast Adam died, he died, so the warning was valid.

The warning says: “In the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”

If “in the day” can mean “hundreds of years later,” then language loses meaning. A warning that cannot possibly be wrong conveys no information.

If I tell someone: “The day you smoke that cigarette, you will die,” and they die 100 years later, my warning was false in its ordinary sense.

Appealing to elastic reinterpretation after the fact is not clarification; it is retroactive rescue.

The “increase pain” can mean, Eve was sent outside of the garden...

The text says:

“I will greatly increase your pain in childbearing.”

That is direct first-person causation.

Rewriting “I will increase” to mean “pain happened indirectly” is not exegesis — it is a theological lie.

It could be coincidence… Bible doesn’t say God sent them.

The curse is pronounced “in the name of the LORD,” and immediately lethal bears appear. The narrative structure attributes agency.

If every negative divine action becomes “coincidence” and every positive one becomes “miracle,” that is asymmetrical reasoning.

Should evil people live forever? The alternatives are yes or no.

That framing is itself a false dichotomy.

The options are not:

• Eternal torture
• Eternal evil

There are other possibilities:

• Rehabilitation
• Containment
• Annihilation without suffering
• Non-creation

You reduce complex moral philosophy to a binary that excludes morally superior alternatives.

Why should God feed people who don’t want to be in any contact with God?

Because basic survival is not a reward for religious compliance.

If a parent withholds food because a child rejects them, that is abuse. Making famine a tool of coercion is not justice.

Those show the hell is eternal fire… It is not said the people are alive there.

Matthew 25:46 says:

“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

If “eternal life” is conscious duration, consistency requires “eternal punishment” to also be enduring.

Otherwise you introduce asymmetry into parallel structure.

Believers are chosen does not mean they were determined to be believers.

Ephesians 1 states believers were chosen “before the foundation of the world” according to God’s will.

The other verses I quoted in my previous post also shows predestination by God.

A sensor is sentient; it can detect something…

Detection is not sentience in the morally relevant sense.

Sentience refers to the capacity for subjective experience — especially suffering.

A thermometer detects temperature. It does not feel pain.

Equivocating between “detects stimulus” and “experiences suffering” is a category mistake.

Sorry, I have no good reason to believe that [99.9% extinction].

The fossil record and evolutionary biology overwhelmingly support mass extinction across geological time. Over 99.9% of all species that have existed are extinct.

This is mainstream paleontology, not speculation. Just because you deny this and other facts, it does not make the facts false.

And you know that, because you are omniscient and omnipotent?

No omniscience is required to evaluate moral coherence.

If a being is:

• All-knowing
• All-powerful
• All-good

Then unnecessary suffering is logically incompatible with that description.

Pointing out inconsistency is not claiming omniscience; it is applying internal critique.

If someone suffers unjustly… it is compensated in eternal life

Compensation does not erase moral responsibility for causing harm.

If I torture someone for a year and then give them infinite pleasure afterward, the torture was still wrong.

Future reward does not retroactively justify inflicted suffering.

Final point

Throughout this discussion, whenever a passage presents moral difficulty, you respond with:

• “It could mean something else.”
• “Maybe it was coincidence.”
• “It depends how you interpret it.”

But when passages support your theology, you read them straightforwardly.

That is not neutral interpretation; it is selective literalism.

My position remains consistent:

If a being designs a system saturated with preventable suffering, injustice, famine, predation, disease, and death — while possessing unlimited power and knowledge — then that being bears moral responsibility for that system.

That is not hatred.
It is moral analysis.

I don't know what your parable means. Please explain.

[1213]

if you claim the Bible is self-contradictory, I think that is a false claim and I don’t think you can prove it.

The Bible contains numerous internal tensions. For example:

Internal tensions? I thought we were speaking about contradictions.

• God “does not tempt anyone” (James 1:13), yet God “tested Abraham” (Genesis 22:1).

Test and tempt are not the same.

• God is “not the author of confusion” (1 Corinthians 14:33), yet sends “strong delusion” (2 Thessalonians 2:11).

Sending “working of error” is not the same as being author of confusion.

For God is not God of confusion, but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:33
And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2 Thessalonians 2:11

• Pharaoh hardens his heart (Exodus 8:15), and God hardens Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 9:12).

Sometimes I get a feeling that people just don’t read the scriptures. Exodus 8:15 tells how pharaoh saw the situation was better and that is why he made his heart heavy. It is God who made the situation better, which is why pharaoh then hardened his heart. So, by making situation better, God caused the hardening of heart. It can be said they both did it, God by making the situation so that it let pharaoh to do what he did.

And Pharaoh saw that there was relief. And he made his heart heavy, and he did not listen to them, as Jehovah had said.
Exodus 8:15
And Jehovah hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, as Jehovah had said to Moses.
Exodus 9:12

There are 560 contradictions listed on the Skeptic's Annotated Bible: https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/firs ... _list.html

If they are as poor as these that you gave, there is no point reading it.

Disagreement does not imply subjectivity.

I think it does, in matters that are about personal preferences.

If morality is merely opinion, then genocide, torture, and rape are only “disliked preferences.” That collapses justice entirely. Yet the Bible presupposes objective moral truth when it condemns sin and threatens punishment.

Bible doesn’t require one believing in objective moral. The Bible shows what God says is wrong and right. And I think it could be said that it is also objectively true that people should not do to others what they don’t want to be done to themselves. However, even that is personal preference, at least according to many atheists.

The warning says: “In the day that you eat of it, you shall surely die.”

The more accurate translation says "dying thou shalt die" or, by death you shall die. And in Biblical point of view this “life” is the death whereby people die and this “life” is then actually dying. The death started that day.

If “in the day” can mean “hundreds of years later,” then language loses meaning. A warning that cannot possibly be wrong conveys no information.

No, it does not. Bible shows that God’s days are not the same as the days of humans. It is possible Adam understood that. And in any case, the main point is that it led to death.

“I will greatly increase your pain in childbearing.”

That is direct first-person causation.

When it is not said how the pain increased, it is not possible to say was it wrong.

The curse is pronounced “in the name of the LORD,” and immediately lethal bears appear. The narrative structure attributes agency.

I think it is poor interpretation.

Should evil people live forever? The alternatives are yes or no.

That framing is itself a false dichotomy.

The options are not:
• Eternal torture
• Eternal evil

Yes, the options to answer were yes or no.

There are other possibilities:

• Rehabilitation
• Containment
• Annihilation without suffering
• Non-creation

All of those are the same as no, evil people should not live forever.

Why should God feed people who don’t want to be in any contact with God?

Because basic survival is not a reward for religious compliance.

It is not about compliance. If person doesn’t want God in his life, there is not much reason to force one to have God in his life. But,

But, according to the Bible God does good also for those who hate Him.

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Matt. 5:44-45

Those show the hell is eternal fire… It is not said the people are alive there.

…
If “eternal life” is conscious duration, consistency requires “eternal punishment” to also be enduring.

Otherwise you introduce asymmetry into parallel structure.

The eternal punishment is enduring. There is no coming back ever. Bible just doesn’t say anyone lives eternally in hell.

Believers are chosen does not mean they were determined to be believers.

Ephesians 1 states believers were chosen “before the foundation of the world” according to God’s will.

Doesn’t mean they were made to be believers in the foundation of the world so that it was not their own choice also.

A sensor is sentient; it can detect something…

Detection is not sentience in the morally relevant sense.

Sentience refers to the capacity for subjective experience — especially suffering.

A thermometer detects temperature. It does not feel pain.

This leads to question. How can we know do animals experience pain more than any object. Are they more like biological machines, than aware beings?

Equivocating between “detects stimulus” and “experiences suffering” is a category mistake.

By what I see, “detects stimulus” is basically the same as “can experience suffering”. Suffering is for example only indication from a “sensor” that there is too much pressure. And it is meant to give a message to do something and protect from failure. A machine could be made that way sentient and self-preserving. That itself doesn’t necessary mean it would be bad or wrong to turn the machine off, in my opinion.

I would like to know, are animals biological machines, or aware beings. I think it is difficult to say. Do you know some way to know how it is?

Throughout this discussion, whenever a passage presents moral difficulty, you respond with:

• “It could mean something else.”…

Passage can always mean something else than what people interpret them to mean. I think the main problem with your arguments is that you make conclusions and interpretations that are not well supported with the Bible.