John 1:1, the word was "a god."

[onewithhim]

Does anyone here have the list of Bible versions that say of John 1:1c "the word was a god"? I know there are several.

[Difflugia]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #89]
Yes, ego eimi is literally "I am" in Greek. The real point is that Exodus 3:14 is more literally "I will be."

In Hebrew, but not in the Septuagint, which reads ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. This is almost certainly what John's Gospel was referencing.

So when translators chose to put "I am" in capitals and refer it to Exodus 3:14, they were simply promoting their desire to prove the trinity.

Whether or not John had the Trinity in view, known Jewish tradition makes it pretty obvious that his Jesus was calling himself the "I am" of Exodus 3:14.

[tygger2]

All the places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

See ehyeh in an OT Interlinear at Exodus 3:14:

Now look up the other scriptures which use ehyeh and see how they are translated:

Genesis 26:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV)

Genesis 31:3 (Jehovah: "I will be with you" NRSV)


Exodus 3:12 (Jehovah: I will be with you" NRSV)

Exodus 4:12 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV)


Exodus 4:15 (Jehovah: "I will be with your mouth" NRSV)


Deuteronomy 32:23 (Moses: "I will be with you" NRSV)


[Replying to Difflugia in post #91]

[tygger2]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #91]

The Septuagint which you quoted at Exodus 3:14 says when translated: "And God spoke to Moses saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you." - The Septuagint Version, Zondervan Publishing House, 1976. This is the exact quote, including capitalization (only the underlining is mine).

I have seen the misuse of this Septuagint quote many times over the last 50+ years. Isn't it obvious that God is describing himself (not by the use of "I am") as THE BEING. Would you really say, for example, if someone said "I am the pilot," that his name was "I am"? Good grief!

[Difflugia]

All the places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

What does that have to do with Diaspora Jewish tradition and the Gospel of John? Are you arguing that because the translator of the Septuagint arguably made a mistake, New Testament rhetoric based on that mistake should be translated differently?

The Septuagint which you quoted at Exodus 3:14 says when translated: "And God spoke to Moses saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you." - The Septuagint Version, Zondervan Publishing House, 1976. This is the exact quote, including capitalization (only the underlining is mine).

I have seen the misuse of this Septuagint quote many times over the last 50+ years. Isn't it obvious that God is describing himself (not by the use of "I am") as THE BEING. Would you really say, for example, if someone said "I am the pilot," that his name was "I am"? Good grief!

You've convinced me. If I ever write a gospel, I won't make the same rhetorical mistake that you think John made.

It's not like that's the only questionably translated passage from the Septuagint that made its way into the New Testament. The well-known example is עַלְמָ֗ה (almah, "young woman") from Isaiah 7:14 becoming παρθένος (parthenos, "virgin") in Matthew 1:23 via the Septuagint. It's clear from context that Isaiah didn't specifically mean a virgin, but that Matthew did. Should we pretend that Matthew wasn't referring to Isaiah? Should we harmonize the translations ourselves? The translators of the NWT apparently think that the answer to both of those questions is no. Why should we treat John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 differently?

[onewithhim]

All the places where ehyeh is used in the the books of Moses are listed below. You will find they always mean "I will be" not "I am," particularly when it is Jehovah speaking about his relationship to his people (as also in Ex. 3:14)

What does that have to do with Diaspora Jewish tradition and the Gospel of John? Are you arguing that because the translator of the Septuagint arguably made a mistake, New Testament rhetoric based on that mistake should be translated differently?

The Septuagint which you quoted at Exodus 3:14 says when translated: "And God spoke to Moses saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you." - The Septuagint Version, Zondervan Publishing House, 1976. This is the exact quote, including capitalization (only the underlining is mine).

I have seen the misuse of this Septuagint quote many times over the last 50+ years. Isn't it obvious that God is describing himself (not by the use of "I am") as THE BEING. Would you really say, for example, if someone said "I am the pilot," that his name was "I am"? Good grief!

You've convinced me. If I ever write a gospel, I won't make the same rhetorical mistake that you think John made.

It's not like that's the only questionably translated passage from the Septuagint that made its way into the New Testament. The well-known example is עַלְמָ֗ה (almah, "young woman") from Isaiah 7:14 becoming παρθένος (parthenos, "virgin") in Matthew 1:23 via the Septuagint. It's clear from context that Isaiah didn't specifically mean a virgin, but that Matthew did. Should we pretend that Matthew wasn't referring to Isaiah? Should we harmonize the translations ourselves? The translators of the NWT apparently think that the answer to both of those questions is no. Why should we treat John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 differently?

I think that tygger was trying to get across the point that "The Being" is what was said in the Septuagint and "I Am" is not necessarily the rendering that people who translate John 8:58 have made popular. It's like Christ would say, "Before Abraham The Being." Quite weird isn't it? Rotherham's translation says: "I Will Become..." and Everett Fox renders Exodus 3:14 as "I Will Be There." So imagine Jesus saying, "Before Abraham was, I Will." It is silly. He wouldn't use such sloppy Greek as has been assigned to him with "I Am." What he said was, "Before Abraham was born I existed." John didn't make a mistake. It is the majority of translators who have made a mistake, twisting John's words.

[Difflugia]

I think that tygger was trying to get across the point that "The Being" is what was said in the Septuagint and "I Am" is not necessarily the rendering that people who translate John 8:58 have made popular.

The full four-word quote in the OG Exodus 3:14 translates to "I am the One who Is" or "I am the Being." Tygger was (I think) trying to make the point that it would be more reasonable for John's Jesus to emphasize "the Being" rather than "I am." I don't disagree, but John's Jesus said what he said. That's why I said that I wouldn't make that choice if I wrote my own gospel, but "The Gospel of Difflugia" and "The Gospel of Tygger" aren't the ones we're working with. John, whether you agree with his choice or not, records Jesus as saying, "I am."

It's like Christ would say, "Before Abraham The Being." Quite weird isn't it?

But he didn't. John's Christ said, "Before Abraham, I am."

Rotherham's translation says: "I Will Become..." and Everett Fox renders Exodus 3:14 as "I Will Be There."

The Hebrew of Exodus has nothing to do with John's Gospel. John's Jesus quoted the Old Greek.

So imagine Jesus saying, "Before Abraham was, I Will." It is silly.

That's probably why he didn't.

He wouldn't use such sloppy Greek as has been assigned to him with "I Am."

But if the Bible's inerrant, then that's exactly what Jesus said. Even if it's not, that's what John said that Jesus said.

What he said was, "Before Abraham was born I existed."

That would be ἐγώ ἦν, "I was," instead of ἐγὼ εἰμί, "I am."

John didn't make a mistake.

I don't think so, either.

It is the majority of translators who have made a mistake, twisting John's words.

I don't think it's the majority doing the twisting. Before you start accusing others of "twising John's words," you may want to carefully examine your own motivations.

[onewithhim]

I think that tygger was trying to get across the point that "The Being" is what was said in the Septuagint and "I Am" is not necessarily the rendering that people who translate John 8:58 have made popular.

The full four-word quote in the OG Exodus 3:14 translates to "I am the One who Is" or "I am the Being." Tygger was (I think) trying to make the point that it would be more reasonable for John's Jesus to emphasize "the Being" rather than "I am." I don't disagree, but John's Jesus said what he said. That's why I said that I wouldn't make that choice if I wrote my own gospel, but "The Gospel of Difflugia" and "The Gospel of Tygger" aren't the ones we're working with. John, whether you agree with his choice or not, records Jesus as saying, "I am."

It's like Christ would say, "Before Abraham The Being." Quite weird isn't it?

But he didn't. John's Christ said, "Before Abraham, I am."

Rotherham's translation says: "I Will Become..." and Everett Fox renders Exodus 3:14 as "I Will Be There."

The Hebrew of Exodus has nothing to do with John's Gospel. John's Jesus quoted the Old Greek.

So imagine Jesus saying, "Before Abraham was, I Will." It is silly.

That's probably why he didn't.

He wouldn't use such sloppy Greek as has been assigned to him with "I Am."

But if the Bible's inerrant, then that's exactly what Jesus said. Even if it's not, that's what John said that Jesus said.

What he said was, "Before Abraham was born I existed."

That would be ἐγώ ἦν, "I was," instead of ἐγὼ εἰμί, "I am."

John didn't make a mistake.

I don't think so, either.

It is the majority of translators who have made a mistake, twisting John's words.

I don't think it's the majority doing the twisting. Before you start accusing others of "twising John's words," you may want to carefully examine your own motivations.

And yours?

The person who translated John 8:58 was looking at Exodus 3:14 and erroneously thought that it was rendered as "I Am." I listed some other meanings above. Because of the error in thinking that "I Am" is the end-all and be-all, they put those words in Jesus' mouth. John didn't write the verse like that. He rendered it as "Before Abraham was born, I existed." It is later translators that thought that Jesus should say what is found at Exodus 3:14, a mess of translation that it is, with mangled word order. It is ungrammatical English for something referred to with a present "am" to occur earlier in time than something described with a past "came to be." Normally, "if we want to refer to an event before one already in the past, we would use a perfect tense. In John 8:58 since Jesus existence is not completed past action, but ongoing, we must use some sort of imperfect verbal form to convey that: 'I have been (since) before Abraham came to be.' That's as close as we can get to what the Greek says in our own language if we pay attention to all parts of the sentence. Both the Living Bible and the NWT offer translations that coordinate the two verbs in John 8:58 according to proper English syntax and that accurately reflect the meaning of the Greek idiom. Other translations fail to do this."

Actually, 'I Am' is a very uncertain rendering of the Hebrew expression in Exodus. I posted what Rotherham and Fox had to say about "I Am." They translated it as "I Will..." But those who promote the significance of the parallel between Exodus 3:14 and the expression "I am" in John say that the correspondence between the two is proven by the exact match in how Exodus 3:14 is translated in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) that was known to the New Testament authors and the wording used by John. But a look at the Septuagint shows this claim to be in error.

continued

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #97]

The Septuagint of Exodus 3:14 has God say ego eimi ho on, "I am the being, or "I am the one that exists." Plainly, ego eimi functions here exactly like it does with all speaking characters throughout the Bible, as a first person pronoun subject, followed by the be-verb, to which a predicate noun is attached. God does not say "I am I Am," he says "I am the Being." "I am" sets up the title or identification God uses of himself, it is not itself that title. Separating "I am" off as if it were meant to stand alone is an interpretive sleight-of-hand, totally distorting the role the phrase plays in the whole sentence, either in the Greek Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 or in John 8:58. There is absolutely nothing in the original Greek of John 8:58 to suggest that Jesus is quoting the Old Testament here.

The majority of translations recognize the idiomatic uses of "I am"(such as John 13:19 and John 18) and properly integrate the words into the context of the passages where they appear. Yet when it comes to 8:58, they suddenly forget how to translate.

In John 8:58 all translations except the Living Bible break the first-person pronoun + verb ("I am") clause out of its relation to the syntax of the sentence, and place it artificially and ungrammatically at the end of the English sentence. These modern translations violate their standard practice of using correct English word order by in this case following the Greek word order, apparently under the influence of the KJV. All translations except the LB and the NWT ignore the true relation between the verbs of the sentence and produce a sentence that makes no sense in English.

It is Jesus' claim to be superior to Abraham and to have a superhuman longevity, NOT a claim to a divine self-designation, that enrages his audience.

[Difflugia]

The person who translated John 8:58 was looking at Exodus 3:14 and erroneously thought that it was rendered as "I Am."

No. ἐγὼ εἰμί means "I am." First person, singular, present tense, active, indicative.

I listed some other meanings above.

What you said is wrong.

Because of the error in thinking that "I Am" is the end-all and be-all, they put those words in Jesus' mouth. John didn't write the verse like that.

That's exactly what John wrote. John wrote ἐγὼ εἰμί. Your stubbornness doesn't change Greek grammar.

He rendered it as "Before Abraham was born, I existed."

No. That would be first person, singular, imperfect, active, indicative: ἐγώ ἦν.

In John 8:58 since Jesus existence is not completed past action, but ongoing, we must use some sort of imperfect verbal form to convey that: 'I have been (since) before Abraham came to be.'

If that's what John meant, that's available in Greek. I just told you what it is.

That's as close as we can get to what the Greek says in our own language if we pay attention to all parts of the sentence.

No. The closest we can get in English is, "I am." Tygger knows that and that's why he's using a different argument. Ask him in a direct message what ἐγὼ εἰμί means.

Actually, 'I Am' is a very uncertain rendering of the Hebrew expression in Exodus.

That's right, but we're talking about Greek, not Hebrew.

But those who promote the significance of the parallel between Exodus 3:14 and the expression "I am" in John say that the correspondence between the two is proven by the exact match in how Exodus 3:14 is translated in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint) that was known to the New Testament authors and the wording used by John. But a look at the Septuagint shows this claim to be in error.

If there's an error, show me what the error is in Greek.

[Revelations won]

Focusing on the OP question;

Does anyone here have the list of Bible versions that say of John 1:1c "the word was a god"? I know there are several.

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THT MAKE?

It only shows that there are various parties that make different translations which changes to suit their respective beliefs.

Wherein are any of the changes, additions or deletions authorized by God?

Are most of these in fact nothing but "man made interpretations or changes?

We believe that the Bible is the Word of God as far as it is translated correctly.