I thought Islam was smart. What were they thinking?

[Greatest I Am]

I thought Islam was smart. What were they thinking?

I always thought Islam a smart religion and I see I was wrong in this once instance. Please do not view this as a critique of any other of your views, I do not know them well enough. I did follow one of your leaders through this medium at one time and respect Islam as a religion. Allah as represented is to be respected.



The issue in question is that of the death of Theo van Gogh.

I cannot view his film Submission with your eyes and mindset and will offer mine from my side.

My overall impression of the message of this film, from a religious point of view, was that if all males, of any religion, that were of spiritual heart, would learn wrong conduct and would gain a further respect for their women.

To me this is a positive for any religion.

The only shame I see is that Islam, a progressive religion, did not come up with it yourselves.

To your fundamentals I ask, what were you thinking? To much of the old pipe perhaps? Please note that I say this as a joke. No Holy anything please.

I hope you will forgive my bluntness in speech. In other places where I discuss religion it is often insinuated that I and Satan are close and so my intrusion on your thoughts may be an insult. I hope you do not take it as such.

In my definition of debate I love all I speak to but, respect they have to earn.

When I first learned of your God, He began without blemish. That of course is only in my eyes for I speak only for one. He now has a small one. Please help me regain that small part of the respect I lost to add to that which I still hold for your God.

I do recognize that the presentation of the young lady in what Islam would view as risqué but would have thought that the benefits of the universal message of right action, would
have cause the leadership to not honor Van Gogh with martyrdom and therefore putting a thorn in Islam’s rump forever.

Regards
DL

[catalyst]

While I am sure Van Goghs murder had things to do with more than just Submission, he was rude, crude and socially unacceptable, the fact that the murder left a note threatening Aaryan Hirsi Ali on Van Gogh's body shows that Submission was a contributing cause.

Hi Goat,

About the "note". Certainly I have seen many a blog or website making these claims, however, one would assume if the note had anything to do with the motive, the Dutch police would not have been scratching their heads as to the motive. I also in my search for info as to this came across what are said to be parts of the assailants "justice dossier" as compiled by the Dutch police and there is one witness who refers to a note (not knowing what was in it) and the Dutch authorities have not commented even to this date (as far as I am aware as I have not been able to find it) on the contents of the note.

Here is the link I read this on if you want to have a look. I cannot vouch for its accuracy. http://dutchreport.blogspot.com/2005/01 ... -gogh.html

The only fact as to the note is.. Yes there was a note.

So I was wondering if you have been able to find any valid evidence to support what you are claiming the contents of said note were? I have seen opinion pieces as to what is assumed the note contained, but that is about it.

I look forward to any further evidence you can bring forth.

[Goat]

While I am sure Van Goghs murder had things to do with more than just Submission, he was rude, crude and socially unacceptable, the fact that the murder left a note threatening Aaryan Hirsi Ali on Van Gogh's body shows that Submission was a contributing cause.

Hi Goat,

About the "note". Certainly I have seen many a blog or website making these claims, however, one would assume if the note had anything to do with the motive, the Dutch police would not have been scratching their heads as to the motive. I also in my search for info as to this came across what are said to be parts of the assailants "justice dossier" as compiled by the Dutch police and there is one witness who refers to a note (not knowing what was in it) and the Dutch authorities have not commented even to this date (as far as I am aware as I have not been able to find it) on the contents of the note.

Here is the link I read this on if you want to have a look. I cannot vouch for its accuracy. http://dutchreport.blogspot.com/2005/01 ... -gogh.html

The only fact as to the note is.. Yes there was a note.

So I was wondering if you have been able to find any valid evidence to support what you are claiming the contents of said note were? I have seen opinion pieces as to what is assumed the note contained, but that is about it.

I look forward to any further evidence you can bring forth.

I see nothing in the blog that shows that they were 'puzzled' about the motive, just the standard questions they would ask, note or no note.

[catalyst]

What I asked of you goat was to provide information to support your claim that the note itself contained threats to Hirsi, as per your claim:

the fact that the murder left a note threatening Aaryan Hirsi Ali

Support the claim.

I look forward to it.

[Goat]

What I asked of you goat was to provide information to support your claim that the note itself contained threats to Hirsi, as per your claim:

the fact that the murder left a note threatening Aaryan Hirsi Ali

Support the claim.

I look forward to it.

Several places

http://ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/ayaanhi ... urder.html

and from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali

letter pinned to Van Gogh's body with a knife was primarily a death threat to Hirsi Ali. After this incident, the Dutch secret service raised the level of security that they provided to her.[25] In an interview to journalist David Cohen, Hirsi Ali has said that although she deeply regrets the murder of van Gogh, she is proud of the film and does not regret having made it. "To feel otherwise would be to deny everything I stand for."[26] At his televised funeral, Van Gogh's own mother not only echoed this sentiment, she urged Hirsi Ali to continue the work that she and Van Gogh had done together.[27]

The English translations I have seen of the note itself come from sources I am not confident in, but Ali's own weblog says there was a death threat, and
she should know.

From http://www.ayaanhirsiali.web-log.nl/aya ... index.html

Sub- mission which was written by Hirsi Ali. In a five-page manifesto pinned to his victim's chest, Bouyeri also threatened Hirsi Ali's life.

Do you think Hirsi Ali's own weblog sufficient evidence?

[catalyst]

Hi Goat,

I have already declined wiki as a viable source on this thread when McCulloch presented it earlier and with good reason. It claimed information that Hirsi herself in her own words refuted.

As to what you describe as Ayaan Hirsi Ali's OWN weblog, looks to me like info about her just sourced from already written external sources, which don't cite their "original" source of info. So the site doesn't seem to actually be HERS, just about her.

You claim however you have an english translation of the note on some site?
^--

The English translations I have seen of the note itself come from sources I am not confident in...

If the translation as well as the original arabic is there, I would have happy to have a squiz at that as I speak, read and write several dialects of arabic myself. (Had to learn as was in Iraq for 18 months).

I look forward to seeing the link with the translation. Thanks.

[Goat]

Hi Goat,

I have already declined wiki as a viable source on this thread when McCulloch presented it earlier and with good reason. It claimed information that Hirsi herself in her own words refuted.

As to what you describe as Ayaan Hirsi Ali's OWN weblog, looks to me like info about her just sourced from already written external sources, which don't cite their "original" source of info. So the site doesn't seem to actually be HERS, just about her.

You claim however you have an english translation of the note on some site?
^--

The English translations I have seen of the note itself come from sources I am not confident in...

If the translation as well as the original arabic is there, I would have happy to have a squiz at that as I speak, read and write several dialects of arabic myself. (Had to learn as was in Iraq for 18 months).

I look forward to seeing the link with the translation. Thanks.

Here is the one.. It had the letter in Dutch and English.

http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/312

[catalyst]

Hi Goat,

Thank you for that. It is just a shame that it was not in arabic. From what I read from it, yes it was addressed to Ali, however the writer was making no death threat to her as it is obvious he himself wanted to die a martyr by killing van gogh.

At no point either does the letter mention Submission but rather her acts in Dutch parliamentary position, which she had been getting death threats about for years prior anyway.

That being the case how is it that you fathom in that the movie had anything to do with it?

I can appreciate that you may not trust the site considering it is militantislammonitor and all, but have you been able to source a translation from a neutral source at all?

So far you are no closer to your claimed "fact" that he was killed because of the movie or of it even being a contributing factor.

[Goat]

Hi Goat,

Thank you for that. It is just a shame that it was not in arabic. From what I read from it, yes it was addressed to Ali, however the writer was making no death threat to her as it is obvious he himself wanted to die a martyr by killing van gogh.

At no point either does the letter mention Submission but rather her acts in Dutch parliamentary position, which she had been getting death threats about for years prior anyway.

That being the case how is it that you fathom in that the movie had anything to do with it?

I can appreciate that you may not trust the site considering it is militantislammonitor and all, but have you been able to source a translation from a neutral source at all?

So far you are no closer to your claimed "fact" that he was killed because of the movie or of it even being a contributing factor.

Well, let's see, the point that Ali and Van Gogh had in common was the movie submission.

And, in the letter, there were certain key phrases.

It had the phrase

There will be no mercy shown to the purveyors of injustice, only the sword will be lifted against hem.No discussions, no demonstrations, no petitions: on DEATH will separate the Truth from the Lies.

Verse: Be warned that the death that you are trying to prevent will surely find you, afterwards you will be taken back to the All Knowing and He will tell you what you attempted to do". (62:8).


Immediately followed by


I surely know that you O Europe, will be destroyed"

"I surely know that you O Holland will be destroyed"

"I surely know that you, O Hirshi Ali will be destroyed"

"I surely know that you, O unbelieving fundamentalists, will be destroyed "


While the letter does not specifically say that it was 'submission', that was the one project the two had in common. It would be a logical conclusion that
since Theo Van Gogh was murdered, and Ali was mention in note left on his body, there has to be a commonality between the two, and the only link between the two was the documentary 'submission'.

[catalyst]

Goat,

Van Gogh's and Hirsi's tie was Pim Fortuyn and his political ideals and these came well before submission.

As the translation states:

This is an open letter on a fundamentalist unbeliever, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. from the Thaghoet Party VVD


Dear Mrs Hirshi Ali,

Since your appearence in the Dutch political arena you have been constantly
busy criticising Muslims and terrorising Islam with your statements. You are
hereby not the first and not the last and also won't be the last to have joined
the crusade against Islam.

and more...:I would first like to begin by your recently launched proposal to screen Muslims regarding their ideology on job applications.

Your proposal is very interesting, even more because the implementation of has
brought out the rotten face of your political masters (when of course it was
honestly tested on them and they openly make their ideology known).

Seeing as that you always propagate "the hand on one's own chest" we would first like to test this proposal on you yourself. The same politics which through it's
policies has joined in the terrorism against Islam and Muslims.

I would very much like to put to you the following question:

What do you think about the fact that van Aartsen and their ideological counterparts see non Jews as not being human?

Baba Mezie 114a -114b : Only Jews are people ("Only you are called (the) people")

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub heading ("Oil of annointing") and Berkath 56a
in which Gentile (non Jews) are called women animals ( "female donkeys")

Ybamoth 92a : All Gentile children are animals

What do you think of the fact that the Mayor of Amsterdam is at the helm of and
ideologie whereby Jews have to lie to non Jews ? Baba Kamma 113a : Jews may use lies ("listen") to mislead gentiles.

What do you think of the fact that you are part of a government that supports a
State which pleads for genocide ?

Sofarim 15, line 10 (Minor Tarcctates): This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tod shebe goyim herog) ("Even the best gentiles must be killed")

Seeing as that you are a champion of equal rights, you should, (after this knowledge has come to you) plead with your Jewish masters to reject the teachings of the Talmud.
You will most likely make it a point to deliver the same plea to the Jewish community in the Netherlands.

Your appearances reveal your lack of courage now and then when you are asking for attention for your struggle. You even had the cowardice to ask Islamic children in school to choose between their creator and the constitution.

You immediately used the answer of these pure young souls to justify the arguments behind your crusade. With these hostilities you have unleashed a boomerang effect and you know that it is only a question of time until this boomerang will seal your fate.

You have the chances now, misses Hirshi Ali, once and for all to carve your own notch in the pages.

There is but one certainty in our entire existence, and that is that everything comes to an end.

A child who comes into this world and fills the universe with his first cries of life,
will finally leave this world with a death rattle .

A blade of grass which can stick out of the dark earth and is touched by the sunlight and fed by falling rain , will finally rot into dust and disappear.

Death, Mrs. Hirshi Ali, is a shared theme of everything that exists. You, I and the
rest of creation cannot get loose from this truth.

There will come a Day when one soul will not be able to help another soul. A Day of horrible tortures and painful tribulations which will go together with with the
terrible cries being pressed out of the lungs of the unjust .Cries. Mrs. Hirshi Ali,
which will cause chills to run up someones spine, and cause the hair on their head
to stand straight up. People will appear to be drunk with (with fear) even though
they arent drunk. On that Great Day the atmosphere will be filled with FEAR

As you can see it is VERY much politics related and makes no mention whatsoever of ANY angle submission brought to the fore.

The note left to the attention of Hirsi cannot be considered a death threat, considering the writer's intent AFTER killing van gogh was to be a martyr himself, killed AT the crime scene. THAT is clear in the translation of the letter. He intended himself to be dead so how was he going to kill her?

The verse you quoted and then the other bits immediately after, I see akin to a christian fundy putting out the "judgement day" threat.

Again, there is nothing pointing to submission even entering into it. A nice little "tie in" to those wanting to buy into it of course. Muhammad B. confessed as to his reasons for killing van gogh and even in his confession van goghs participation as to submission didn't even enter the equation. He was bumped off by the guy because he was just an as%ole..period.

[Goat]

Goat,

Van Gogh's and Hirsi's tie was Pim Fortuyn and his political ideals and these came well before submission.

As the translation states:

This is an open letter on a fundamentalist unbeliever, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. from the Thaghoet Party VVD


Dear Mrs Hirshi Ali,

Since your appearence in the Dutch political arena you have been constantly
busy criticising Muslims and terrorising Islam with your statements. You are
hereby not the first and not the last and also won't be the last to have joined
the crusade against Islam.

and more...:I would first like to begin by your recently launched proposal to screen Muslims regarding their ideology on job applications.

Your proposal is very interesting, even more because the implementation of has
brought out the rotten face of your political masters (when of course it was
honestly tested on them and they openly make their ideology known).

Seeing as that you always propagate "the hand on one's own chest" we would first like to test this proposal on you yourself. The same politics which through it's
policies has joined in the terrorism against Islam and Muslims.

I would very much like to put to you the following question:

What do you think about the fact that van Aartsen and their ideological counterparts see non Jews as not being human?

Baba Mezie 114a -114b : Only Jews are people ("Only you are called (the) people")

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub heading ("Oil of annointing") and Berkath 56a
in which Gentile (non Jews) are called women animals ( "female donkeys")

Ybamoth 92a : All Gentile children are animals

What do you think of the fact that the Mayor of Amsterdam is at the helm of and
ideologie whereby Jews have to lie to non Jews ? Baba Kamma 113a : Jews may use lies ("listen") to mislead gentiles.

What do you think of the fact that you are part of a government that supports a
State which pleads for genocide ?

Sofarim 15, line 10 (Minor Tarcctates): This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tod shebe goyim herog) ("Even the best gentiles must be killed")

Seeing as that you are a champion of equal rights, you should, (after this knowledge has come to you) plead with your Jewish masters to reject the teachings of the Talmud.
You will most likely make it a point to deliver the same plea to the Jewish community in the Netherlands.

Your appearances reveal your lack of courage now and then when you are asking for attention for your struggle. You even had the cowardice to ask Islamic children in school to choose between their creator and the constitution.

You immediately used the answer of these pure young souls to justify the arguments behind your crusade. With these hostilities you have unleashed a boomerang effect and you know that it is only a question of time until this boomerang will seal your fate.

You have the chances now, misses Hirshi Ali, once and for all to carve your own notch in the pages.

There is but one certainty in our entire existence, and that is that everything comes to an end.

A child who comes into this world and fills the universe with his first cries of life,
will finally leave this world with a death rattle .

A blade of grass which can stick out of the dark earth and is touched by the sunlight and fed by falling rain , will finally rot into dust and disappear.

Death, Mrs. Hirshi Ali, is a shared theme of everything that exists. You, I and the
rest of creation cannot get loose from this truth.

There will come a Day when one soul will not be able to help another soul. A Day of horrible tortures and painful tribulations which will go together with with the
terrible cries being pressed out of the lungs of the unjust .Cries. Mrs. Hirshi Ali,
which will cause chills to run up someones spine, and cause the hair on their head
to stand straight up. People will appear to be drunk with (with fear) even though
they arent drunk. On that Great Day the atmosphere will be filled with FEAR

As you can see it is VERY much politics related and makes no mention whatsoever of ANY angle submission brought to the fore.

The note left to the attention of Hirsi cannot be considered a death threat, considering the writer's intent AFTER killing van gogh was to be a martyr himself, killed AT the crime scene. THAT is clear in the translation of the letter. He intended himself to be dead so how was he going to kill her?

The verse you quoted and then the other bits immediately after, I see akin to a christian fundy putting out the "judgement day" threat.

Again, there is nothing pointing to submission even entering into it. A nice little "tie in" to those wanting to buy into it of course. Muhammad B. confessed as to his reasons for killing van gogh and even in his confession van goghs participation as to submission didn't even enter the equation. He was bumped off by the guy because he was just an as%ole..period.

Perhaps it wasn't for submission, but as far as I see, there definitely is a threat there. He might have been looking for martyerdom , but the mentality is showing 'keep a look over your shoulder , because someone else will do it.' Do you think that kind of person has that kind of mentality in isolation?

One thing you should realize is that the letter that was left was NOT signed by Mohammad B. but rather by the ideologist of a group he belonged to by the name of Saifu Deen alMuwahhied. The group he was associated with was Takfir wal-Hijra.

Since the letter was signed in the name of an extremist group and not by the person who committed the crime, I would say that is a definite threat. It is saying 'Others will get you'.

Everything I see does not go with your interpretation of the facts. It might not have to do primarily with the documentary 'Submission', but it certainly linked a death threat with Theo Van Gogh's death to Ali, and referenced a radical organization.

I think you are being very obstinate about this, since I am showing quite a lot of evidence that you just cause you to move goal posts.