I thought Islam was smart. What were they thinking?

[Greatest I Am]

I thought Islam was smart. What were they thinking?

I always thought Islam a smart religion and I see I was wrong in this once instance. Please do not view this as a critique of any other of your views, I do not know them well enough. I did follow one of your leaders through this medium at one time and respect Islam as a religion. Allah as represented is to be respected.



The issue in question is that of the death of Theo van Gogh.

I cannot view his film Submission with your eyes and mindset and will offer mine from my side.

My overall impression of the message of this film, from a religious point of view, was that if all males, of any religion, that were of spiritual heart, would learn wrong conduct and would gain a further respect for their women.

To me this is a positive for any religion.

The only shame I see is that Islam, a progressive religion, did not come up with it yourselves.

To your fundamentals I ask, what were you thinking? To much of the old pipe perhaps? Please note that I say this as a joke. No Holy anything please.

I hope you will forgive my bluntness in speech. In other places where I discuss religion it is often insinuated that I and Satan are close and so my intrusion on your thoughts may be an insult. I hope you do not take it as such.

In my definition of debate I love all I speak to but, respect they have to earn.

When I first learned of your God, He began without blemish. That of course is only in my eyes for I speak only for one. He now has a small one. Please help me regain that small part of the respect I lost to add to that which I still hold for your God.

I do recognize that the presentation of the young lady in what Islam would view as risqué but would have thought that the benefits of the universal message of right action, would
have cause the leadership to not honor Van Gogh with martyrdom and therefore putting a thorn in Islam’s rump forever.

Regards
DL

[catalyst]

Goat,

Here is the irony. Since my post to DL on page 3 #24, I have been trying to find out where the evidence is to support that Van gogh was killed BECAUSE of the movie submission. You then pipped in with claims of a fatwa against HIM because of movie and death threats because OF the movie....PERIOD. THAT is what I was interested in clarifying, but you didn't. YOU were the one who brought in info courtesy of wiki and cbs which talked more about Hirsi than van gogh hence it moving on from my initial question as to van goghs death and the reasons behind it.

Now just to clarify a few things. The 5 page letter with verses from the Q'aran was TYPED and in arabic Saifu Deen alMuwahhied pretty much translates to unity by the sword of religion and is not actually a name of an "ideologist" or anyone else or some radical group as you are claiming. IF however you can prove otherwise, please be my guest.

The group he was associated with was Takfir wal-Hijra.

Cite sources.

I am not asking for much here goat. I just want unbiased and neutral sources from you to support YOUR claims.

[Goat]

Goat,

Here is the irony. Since my post to DL on page 3 #24, I have been trying to find out where the evidence is to support that Van gogh was killed BECAUSE of the movie submission. You then pipped in with claims of a fatwa against HIM because of movie and death threats because OF the movie....PERIOD. THAT is what I was interested in clarifying, but you didn't. YOU were the one who brought in info courtesy of wiki and cbs which talked more about Hirsi than van gogh hence it moving on from my initial question as to van goghs death and the reasons behind it.

Now just to clarify a few things. The 5 page letter with verses from the Q'aran was TYPED and in arabic Saifu Deen alMuwahhied pretty much translates to unity by the sword of religion and is not actually a name of an "ideologist" or anyone else or some radical group as you are claiming. IF however you can prove otherwise, please be my guest.

The group he was associated with was Takfir wal-Hijra.

Cite sources.

I am not asking for much here goat. I just want unbiased and neutral sources from you to support YOUR claims.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri

Pinned to the body of Van Gogh with a smaller knife, Bouyeri was said to have left a second letter, consisting of five pages in which Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), and politicians in general are warned. It contains repeated references to alleged Jewish influences in politics. The letter refers to the fundamentalist ideology of the Takfir wal-Hijra. This letter probably wasn't written by Mohammed Bouyeri himself, but by his group's ideologist. It was signed Saifu Deen alMuwahhied.

[catalyst]

Goat,

Here is the irony. Since my post to DL on page 3 #24, I have been trying to find out where the evidence is to support that Van gogh was killed BECAUSE of the movie submission. You then pipped in with claims of a fatwa against HIM because of movie and death threats because OF the movie....PERIOD. THAT is what I was interested in clarifying, but you didn't. YOU were the one who brought in info courtesy of wiki and cbs which talked more about Hirsi than van gogh hence it moving on from my initial question as to van goghs death and the reasons behind it.

Now just to clarify a few things. The 5 page letter with verses from the Q'aran was TYPED and in arabic Saifu Deen alMuwahhied pretty much translates to unity by the sword of religion and is not actually a name of an "ideologist" or anyone else or some radical group as you are claiming. IF however you can prove otherwise, please be my guest.

The group he was associated with was Takfir wal-Hijra.

Cite sources.

I am not asking for much here goat. I just want unbiased and neutral sources from you to support YOUR claims.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri

Pinned to the body of Van Gogh with a smaller knife, Bouyeri was said to have left a second letter, consisting of five pages in which Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), and politicians in general are warned. It contains repeated references to alleged Jewish influences in politics. The letter refers to the fundamentalist ideology of the Takfir wal-Hijra. This letter probably wasn't written by Mohammed Bouyeri himself, but by his group's ideologist. It was signed Saifu Deen alMuwahhied.

I DID request UNBIASED and NEUTRAL.

ANyway though, I will "work" with you here to just show you that you cannot accept what is in wiki as EITHER. (but apparently you believe it all at face value, regardless.. )

The letter refers to the fundamentalist ideology of the Takfir wal-Hijra. This letter probably wasn't written by Mohammed Bouyeri himself, but by his group's ideologist. It was signed Saifu Deen alMuwahhied

As I had already pointed out Saifu Deen al Muwahhied is not someones NAME and if Takfir wal-Hijra's ideologist wrote it, why was it not signed Abu Muhammad Asem al-Maqdisi instead? (as that IS the ideologists name). BTW the hyperlink attached to "Saifu deen al Muwahhied" on your wiki link says "page does not exist". Perhaps the actual meaning OF the words did not "fit" the wiki page writers personal intent?

Pinned to the body of Van Gogh with a smaller knife, Bouyeri was said to have left a second letter, consisting of five pages in which Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), and politicians in general are warned. It contains repeated references to alleged Jewish influences in politics

I am failing to see how a letter pinned to him, full of verses from the qu'ran (which relate strictly to "JUDGEMENT DAY" REVELATIONS - qu'ran version obviously) shows actual death threats. I personally don't feel "threatened" when a fundy christian starts spewing forth passages from the Book of Revelations, telling me to 'repent now" or I will go to "hell" when I meet the their alleged "maker", nor do I see how your wiki source actually answers my original question which was (paraphrased) Is it known for sure that the movie Submission was the reason he was killed.

FYI too, in April 2004 there was a petition on an Islamic website requesting muslims to sign it, asking that Van goghs columns: "May I say this?" be stopped being printed. They got tired of him calling them all "goatf'ers", allah a rapist etc and his generally bigotted tone. This signed petition was also sent on to Lower House , the AIVD and the Minister of Internal Affairs.

Van Gogh continued with his column regardless.

I am not by the way, validating the actions of Bouyeri however it is apparent to me given the above infomation as to the petition, given the note left (you see as death threats) mentions Parliamentary and political party views and decisions ONLY as being the reasons, then the movie itself had ZERO to do with why he was actually killed, nor are the claimed "death threats" on Hirsi related to the movie either.

[Goat]

Goat,

Here is the irony. Since my post to DL on page 3 #24, I have been trying to find out where the evidence is to support that Van gogh was killed BECAUSE of the movie submission. You then pipped in with claims of a fatwa against HIM because of movie and death threats because OF the movie....PERIOD. THAT is what I was interested in clarifying, but you didn't. YOU were the one who brought in info courtesy of wiki and cbs which talked more about Hirsi than van gogh hence it moving on from my initial question as to van goghs death and the reasons behind it.

Now just to clarify a few things. The 5 page letter with verses from the Q'aran was TYPED and in arabic Saifu Deen alMuwahhied pretty much translates to unity by the sword of religion and is not actually a name of an "ideologist" or anyone else or some radical group as you are claiming. IF however you can prove otherwise, please be my guest.

The group he was associated with was Takfir wal-Hijra.

Cite sources.

I am not asking for much here goat. I just want unbiased and neutral sources from you to support YOUR claims.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri

Pinned to the body of Van Gogh with a smaller knife, Bouyeri was said to have left a second letter, consisting of five pages in which Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), and politicians in general are warned. It contains repeated references to alleged Jewish influences in politics. The letter refers to the fundamentalist ideology of the Takfir wal-Hijra. This letter probably wasn't written by Mohammed Bouyeri himself, but by his group's ideologist. It was signed Saifu Deen alMuwahhied.

I DID request UNBIASED and NEUTRAL.

ANyway though, I will "work" with you here to just show you that you cannot accept what is in wiki as EITHER. (but apparently you believe it all at face value, regardless.. )

The letter refers to the fundamentalist ideology of the Takfir wal-Hijra. This letter probably wasn't written by Mohammed Bouyeri himself, but by his group's ideologist. It was signed Saifu Deen alMuwahhied

As I had already pointed out Saifu Deen al Muwahhied is not someones NAME and if Takfir wal-Hijra's ideologist wrote it, why was it not signed Abu Muhammad Asem al-Maqdisi instead? (as that IS the ideologists name). BTW the hyperlink attached to "Saifu deen al Muwahhied" on your wiki link says "page does not exist". Perhaps the actual meaning OF the words did not "fit" the wiki page writers personal intent?

Pinned to the body of Van Gogh with a smaller knife, Bouyeri was said to have left a second letter, consisting of five pages in which Ayaan Hirsi Ali, the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), and politicians in general are warned. It contains repeated references to alleged Jewish influences in politics

I am failing to see how a letter pinned to him, full of verses from the qu'ran (which relate strictly to "JUDGEMENT DAY" REVELATIONS - qu'ran version obviously) shows actual death threats. I personally don't feel "threatened" when a fundy christian starts spewing forth passages from the Book of Revelations, telling me to 'repent now" or I will go to "hell" when I meet the their alleged "maker", nor do I see how your wiki source actually answers my original question which was (paraphrased) Is it known for sure that the movie Submission was the reason he was killed.

FYI too, in April 2004 there was a petition on an Islamic website requesting muslims to sign it, asking that Van goghs columns: "May I say this?" be stopped being printed. They got tired of him calling them all "goatf'ers", allah a rapist etc and his generally bigotted tone. This signed petition was also sent on to Lower House , the AIVD and the Minister of Internal Affairs.

Van Gogh continued with his column regardless.

I am not by the way, validating the actions of Bouyeri however it is apparent to me given the above infomation as to the petition, given the note left (you see as death threats) mentions Parliamentary and political party views and decisions ONLY as being the reasons, then the movie itself had ZERO to do with why he was actually killed, nor are the claimed "death threats" on Hirsi related to the movie either.

I suspect that no source of information will be 'neutral' to you. Shrug. Your dismissal of wiki is noted,and I am going to leave it at that. I also suspect that anything that disagrees with your preconceptions won't be 'neutral' for you.

Nor, will you accept her own words

http://somebodyhelpme.info/righteous/Ay ... mission.rm

I can also give a number of links to interviews that mention the link between Ali, Van gogh, submission and his murder.

You will never accept it though.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/07/hirsi_ali/
http://www.reason.com/news/show/122457.html

http://www.africannect.com/?p=358

Clutch: The assassination of your friend, the director Theo Van Gogh, was a cruel tragedy. At the time you were quoted as saying that you had no regrets about making the film. In hindsight, have your views on this changed?
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: I wish Theo were alive. In hindsight, I wish I had managed to persuade him to take his name off the film. But he didn’t want to hide his name. He felt proud of that film. I don’t regret making Submission. I think more films like Submission should be made.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/a ... 006279.php

SPIEGEL: Ms. Hirsi Ali, the trial of Theo van Gogh's murderers is about to begin. A Muslim fanatic stabbed the filmmaker to death in broad daylight last November, because, with your collaboration, he had filmed "Submission," a film about the suppression of Muslim women. Did you have any idea, at the time, that this eleven-minute short film could endanger the lives of both of you?

Hirsi Ali: I knew that there are many enemies. After all, they have been threatening me ever since I turned away from my faith in 2002. I warned Theo, urged him to request a bodyguard. But he defied me, saying that he didn't want the Dutch police entering his house.

[catalyst]

Again, Irony goat. I was not the one coming in with preconceived "belief". You however were.

I have no problem with the fact that Bouyeri killed him and pinned a note to his chest. I am just questioning the assumed reasons (BY YOU) WHY.

Van Gogh, as I have already written, was interviewed HIMSELF in september of 04 and he stated categorically that he had not received ANY death threats due to the film. I am quite sure if he had, he would have just used it as just more fodder for his bigotry. What Hirsi has to say after his death as to what happened as to Van Gogh, is nothing more than heresay and in fact just does more to fuel her own personal agenda.

YOU however seem to just be wanting to ignore what the man HIMSELF said.

There is nothing whatsoever IN the note pinned to Van gogh referencing the movie, but MUCH addressing the political ideals of Hirsi and others (whom BTW Van Gogh endorsed after the assassination of Pim Fortuyn..so again NO, their "tie" was NOT the movie as you claim). Their "tie" as I stated before goat was that of Dutch politics.

On post #33 on page 4, I said pretty much what I am saying above. After that you did the bolt from the debate. THEN you pip in on page 5 Post #50 claiming :

While I am sure Van Goghs murder had things to do with more than just Submission, he was rude, crude and socially unacceptable, the fact that the murder left a note threatening Aaryan Hirsi Ali on Van Gogh's body shows that Submission was a contributing cause.

Now it has been established that the note DID NOT mention anything to do with "submission" (the film) in any way, but parliamentary "stuff".
To my reply you wrote:

Perhaps it wasn't for submission, ..........

You can read it all goat. It is just stuff over 4 or so pages in total...
The guy is in jail now for murder. GOOD. Should he in my opinion opted to kill someone for their opinions? NOPE. But I am however stressing the point here that the actual movie ITSELF and van gogh being the producer OF it, had ZERO to do with his assassination and nor did the contents of the note pinned to him even allude TO it.

Pay attention goat!

[Goat]

You can read it all goat. It is just stuff over 4 or so pages in total...
The guy is in jail now for murder. GOOD. Should he in my opinion opted to kill someone for their opinions? NOPE. But I am however stressing the point here that the actual movie ITSELF and van gogh being the producer OF it, had ZERO to do with his assassination and nor did the contents of the note pinned to him even allude TO it.

Pay attention goat!

Irony indeed. It seem ALL the sources I am reading on it, including interviews with Ali herself link Van Gogh's murder to the movie. If it is a misconception, it seems to be an extremely common misconception, including Ali herself.

Now, every source I have looked up associates the assassination with the movie Submission, (pay attention). I have shown you ones from liberal sources, from conservative sources, from interviews with Ai herself.

Now, if you wish to reject ALL those sources, feel free. I notice that you have not been able to find any specific sources that say it was for other reasons, you just deny the sources I have shown.

Do you wish to address , lets see, the interviews with Ali herself?? As you say 'Pay attention' .

[catalyst]

And the interview with Theo Van Gogh HIMSELF contradicts what Hirsi is saying!

HE would know better than anyone if HE received death threats because of the movie. HE said he didn't.

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_art ... y_id=11232

Director of 'insulting' Islamic film gets protection


AMSTERDAM — Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was given police protection on Monday following the screening of a controversial and "insulting" film about the abuse suffered by women in Islamic societies.

The writer of the film, Liberal VVD politician Ayaan Hirsi Ali, is already under police protection following earlier threats to her life.

Van Gogh said despite the shocking content of the film — which casts an accusing eye on the treatment of women in the Islamic faith — no threats were made against him, news agency ANP reported.

As you can see, HE received no threats. Hirsi was already under police protection because of EARLIER threats since 2002 (obviously then UNRELATED TO THE MOVIE).

Again what SHE has to say as to him AFTER his death, is heresay and again I reckon just to fuel her own personal agenda.

Here is the biggest clincher. IF as you claim the murder was because of "Submission", then why does the 5 page letter you take as "death threats because of the movie" include all of Europe, The Netherlands, the US, the VVD Political Party and their party actions (actually mentioned IN detail). To my knowledge, the movie "submission" was not a collaborative "work" of all of Europe, Holland, the US and the entire VVD Party..etc. Perhaps you have more info up your sleeve showing that "link" in?