What is wrong with abortion?

[arunangelo]

What is wrong with abortion?

Those who exercise true love respect all human beings irrespective of their appearance or size. They, therefore, recognize the humanity of a one cell stage human being by recognizing that it is an independent life form with human genes; and has a human life force within it that initiates, directs and sustains a process to take that person through successive stages of development (over many years) to transform that person from a single cell individual to a fully grown human being with 10 trillion cells, multiple complex systems and a brain with a memory capacity equal to 20,000 computers. They, therefore see destruction of human beings in the embryonic and fetal stage as murder. They also see such an act as gross violation of human rights because it denies the victim from reaching his/her full human potential.

[Pastor4Jesus]

It shouldn't make us angry? it shouldn't make us angry that you think that having abortions is so evil that the women cannot possibly be that evil, and must be possessed by Satan? any man (or woman for that matter) who believes that abortions are evil and the women who do them are evil(or possessed) can take that opinion and shove it.

First calm down! You are going to have a heart attack at age 22. What you don't understand that some of us, myself included considered abortion murder of the helpless when its preformed as an afterthought or for the simple convince of a lazy mom and partner. So first you have to have empathy. You have to be able to know how others think. We don't think abortion is murder, we consider it almost a certainty! The reason (some I hope!) abortion proponents think we right to lifers are too overboard in our beliefs is because they don't think we really believe abortion is murder. They seem to think we are just hateful self righteous bored people that want to fuss about something. I can tell you that that's not true (for the bulk of the group).

Anyway~

I would rather be satanically influenced than be prepared to kill for convenience as part of my personality. You have to be able to look at a problem without allowing emotion to rule your decisions. What if abortion really was murder? If it was found today that the unborn were human and self aware what would you say to the hundred of millions that were murdered? Your sorry? Sorry. you know there was a possibility that was the case, maybe a very low possibility but one nevertheless. So if that were true you would have very bloody hands!

As for your recommendation for placement of an opinion I have another ; If a representative of our species were so callous as to kill an unborn for the convenience of mom and dad, satanic possession would be a promotion for them. I wouldn't kill a puppy for convenience much less an unborn, and I can not understand how a feeling human being can kill an unborn for, well convenience is an accurate word, so it will stand.

P4JC.

[FinalEnigma]

It shouldn't make us angry? it shouldn't make us angry that you think that having abortions is so evil that the women cannot possibly be that evil, and must be possessed by Satan? any man (or woman for that matter) who believes that abortions are evil and the women who do them are evil(or possessed) can take that opinion and shove it.

First calm down! You are going to have a heart attack at age 22. What you don't understand that some of us, myself included considered abortion murder of the helpless when its preformed as an afterthought or for the simple convince of a lazy mom and partner. So first you have to have empathy. You have to be able to know how others think. We don't think abortion is murder, we consider it almost a certainty! The reason (some I hope!) abortion proponents think we right to lifers are too overboard in our beliefs is because they don't think we really believe abortion is murder. They seem to think we are just hateful self righteous bored people that want to fuss about something. I can tell you that that's not true (for the bulk of the group).

No, it's because we believe, based on science, that you're wrong. we don't think you're going about lying all the time, just that your holding to a standard other than evidence.

Anyway~

I would rather be satanically influenced than be prepared to kill for convenience as part of my personality. You have to be able to look at a problem without allowing emotion to rule your decisions. What if abortion really was murder? If it was found today that the unborn were human and self aware what would you say to the hundred of millions that were murdered? Your sorry? Sorry. you know there was a possibility that was the case, maybe a very low possibility but one nevertheless. So if that were true you would have very bloody hands!

The problem with this is that it simply isn't possible. I don't like late term abortion any more than you do, but before the fetus is even capable of self awareness there's a difference.

As for your recommendation for placement of an opinion I have another ; If a representative of our species were so callous as to kill an unborn for the convenience of mom and dad, satanic possession would be a promotion for them. I wouldn't kill a puppy for convenience much less an unborn, and I can not understand how a feeling human being can kill an unborn for, well convenience is an accurate word, so it will stand.

look at it this way, for people who do not believe in satan, you are equating the actions of these women with what you believe to be the most evil being in existence. to one who does not believe in satan, you are calling these women satan, which, of course, they don't believe in, but they know what you believe him to be.
but you're saying 'it's okay. I know they couldn't possibly be that evil, satan did it.' well they did do it, not satan, so they are 'that evil', so you are calling them as evil as satan.

[T-mash]

What you don't understand that some of us, myself included considered abortion murder of the helpless when its preformed as an afterthought or for the simple convince of a lazy mom and partner. So first you have to have empathy. You have to be able to know how others think. We don't think abortion is murder, we consider it almost a certainty! The reason (some I hope!) abortion proponents think we right to lifers are too overboard in our beliefs is because they don't think we really believe abortion is murder. They seem to think we are just hateful self righteous bored people that want to fuss about something. I can tell you that that's not true (for the bulk of the group).

First off. It's not murder if it's allowed., therefore whether or not it is murder is not an argument. Or as Wikipedia says: "Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent". If Abortion is legal it is by definition not murder even if you would go so far to call an unborn clump of cells a human being.
Second off, making abortion illegal is not saving lives, it's forcing lives. If you go up to a girl and you ask her to have sex and she turns you down, by your definition she is a murderer. She is responsible for not allowing a potential human being to live. There is no difference between an unborn child and a woman who isn't pregnant. So maybe we should force pregnancy as well to allow as many potential lives as possible? After all, all those dying egg cells and sperm cells is murder as well.

I would rather be satanically influenced than be prepared to kill for convenience as part of my personality.

It's best to flip this around. In your religion God is the child-killer, not satan

You have to be able to look at a problem without allowing emotion to rule your decisions.

We're not the ones crying about the life of an unborn clump of cells here.

What if abortion really was murder? If it was found today that the unborn were human and self aware what would you say to the hundred of millions that were murdered? Your sorry? Sorry. you know there was a possibility that was the case, maybe a very low possibility but one nevertheless. So if that were true you would have very bloody hands!

They are not self-aware. Your point is moot. What if we found out that everyone who has been sentenced to death or prison was innocent?! Would you go tell all of their families you are sorry?! Therefore justice should be made illegal! Same thing. It's a hypothetical question that isn't worth answering, and sure as hell isn't a worthy argument against abortion.

As for your recommendation for placement of an opinion I have another ; If a representative of our species were so callous as to kill an unborn for the convenience of mom and dad, satanic possession would be a promotion for them.

Again satanic. You mean divine?

I wouldn't kill a puppy for convenience much less an unborn, and I can not understand how a feeling human being can kill an unborn for, well convenience is an accurate word, so it will stand.

Right. So you'd have no problem if we'd force you to give birth to a puppy and raise it then? Of course as a male you are clueless about giving birth. I don't think you have children, because you appear clueless about what it takes to raise a kid. You want to force women world-wide to get a baby, 9 months of pregnancy, labour, giving birth, raising a child for the rest of their life.. just because you think it fits with your religion to not kill some cells? That's fundamentally sick.

Maybe we should also leave cancer patients to die? Because killing of those tumors is against the Lord's will! Who are we to decide whether or not those tumor cells deserve to die? Or is it okay to kill human cells in that case? I'm sure you are a vegetarian too.... oh wait.. even if you are.. plants are alive too!

PS. Where does this idea come from that Christians and Christianity cares about life? Number 1 murderous organisation in the world, filled with people that can't wait for the earth to blow up causing the end of humanity so they can go to heaven on judgement day, claiming they care the most about human lives? Right..

[Abraxas]

To me, in the end, it comes down to what human being is required to give up for another. I understand the arguments for and against, human or not human, murder or not murder, and all that comes with it. To me, ultimately, it doesn't matter. In the case of pregnancy, even if you accept the fetus is human, you are essentially saying if you oppose abortion that you would require a woman, for nine months, to risk her health and body in order to carry around inside her another human being whether she wants to or not.

Now, I am all for caring for your fellow human beings, however, to me, there is a limit to the extent our obligation goes. If I can save a human being by giving up an organ, should I then be compelled to give up that organ? If I can save lives by selling everything I own, giving it all to charity, and spend the rest of my life doing volunteer work, am I obligated to do so? I do not think we are. Carrying another being inside of you for nine months, regardless of circumstance, to me is more than can be reasonably required of one human to do for another against their will.

[Pastor4Jesus]

No, it's because we believe, based on science, that you're wrong. we don't think you're going about lying all the time, just that your holding to a standard other than evidence.

Your beliefs are understandable. However science has a habit of being wrong. That's not too bad if science thinks Piltdown man existed for 40 years, but its serious when the lives of millions of unborn are dependent on the reality that science defines for those that believe it with a near certainty of correctness. When science defines the truth for those that control the legal machine, then science becomes the judge jury and executioner for the unborn. So, if we admit that science is fallible, and in some cases redundantly fallible I can not in good conscious give it the authority of aborting human life. The problem is in where one places their trust.

The problem with this is that it simply isn't possible. I don't like late term abortion any more than you do, but before the fetus is even capable of self awareness there's a difference.

Yes, the biggest difference is our willingness to take chances and our trust in science. I agree It’s much more easy for me being a man, to make these kinds of ‘judgments’ and it’s the perceived callousness of people like me that so enrage those that want total control over pregnancies. However I can no more agree with the abortions for anything but harm to the mother etc than I can agree to murder its as simple as that. I know we all make mistakes and I have made many in the past, its just pure luck I didn’t have a decision to make. But it gets back to the inescapable conclusion that we may be making a horrible mistake. I might add while I can understand the anger of the Pro Choice people they should understand that most Christians really do think most abortion are a crime.

look at it this way, for people who do not believe in satan, you are equating the actions of these women with what you believe to be the most evil being in existence. to one who does not believe in satan, you are calling these women satan, which, of course, they don't believe in, but they know what you believe him to be.
but you're saying 'it's okay. I know they couldn't possibly be that evil, satan did it.' well they did do it, not satan, so they are 'that evil', so you are calling them as evil as satan

I understand that. However it’s a kind of an out. I don't want to think normal caring people would abort. Look at it this way; 'If I were a murder of a grown human for example, I would rather my actions be influenced by a evil being than myself'. So its more of them being tricked into doing an abortion than being evil themselves.

Again much of the problem is the mistrust between the Christian and the atheist. I do admit that I do not help when I lose my temper and add unnecessary flame to an already roaring fire. I am working on that and what I write and how I respond now are very mild compared to my threads and posts a year ago. Anyway, I take some responsibility for the anger. I still write for (the local) newspapers and tabloids. There are times that unbeknown to me, my sensationalist style bleeds subconsciously into what I write. Nevertheless, thanks for explaining your case in a civil manner.

P4JC

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 54:

Your beliefs are understandable. However science has a habit of being wrong.

So does religion. In science though there a mechanisms for correction. The Bible still states a striped stick can influence the colors or pattern of an animal's offspring.

...Piltdown man...but its serious when the lives of millions of unborn are dependent on the reality that science defines for those that believe it with a near certainty of correctness.

I contrast this with folks trying to stop the teaching of one of the most fundamental aspects of biology, based on their certainity of a god having produced folks from dust.

When science defines the truth for those that control the legal machine, then science becomes the judge jury and executioner for the unborn.

As opposed to religious folks controlling such decisions. Here I think about those that are stoned to death for being raped by someone else. And these folks are already born.

So, if we admit that science is fallible, and in some cases redundantly fallible I can not in good conscious give it the authority of aborting human life. The problem is in where one places their trust.

Agreed. A very difficult decision I contend is best left to the mother and her doctor.

...However I can no more agree with the abortions for anything but harm to the mother etc than I can agree to murder its as simple as that...

Plenty fair. I would encourage all to consider that abortion is the killing of a human, but that this very difficult decision should remain with the mother and her doctor.

I might add while I can understand the anger of the Pro Choice people they should understand that most Christians really do think most abortion are a crime.

I don't doubt that Christians are honestly, even admirably opposed to abortion, but I would still contend it is going to happen whether we provide safe places or not. My issue is one of allowing a safe environment for what is likely to occur anyway, as well as the potential unfairness that would arise by rich folks being able to pay to go to where abortions are allowed, or to just pay a doctor "under the table". I note here the Pastor does allow for reasonable exceptions.

...Anyway, I take some responsibility for the anger...

Perfectly understandable (if unacceptable) when the issue of abortion / women's rights to their bodies comes up.

[T-mash]

Your beliefs are understandable. However science has a habit of being wrong. That's not too bad if science thinks Piltdown man existed for 40 years, but its serious when the lives of millions of unborn are dependent on the reality that science defines for those that believe it with a near certainty of correctness. When science defines the truth for those that control the legal machine, then science becomes the judge jury and executioner for the unborn. So, if we admit that science is fallible, and in some cases redundantly fallible I can not in good conscious give it the authority of aborting human life. The problem is in where one places their trust.

Yes, the biggest difference is our willingness to take chances and our trust in science.

"Science" is objective human knowledge and the search thereof. "Science" didn't got anything wrong, because "science" doesn't do anything. If as you propose "science" would point towards abortion being good that merely means human knowledge has shown us that it is. It merely means that we humans have learned and objectively shown that it is most likely so. I don't see why you take a negative stands towards science and then put forward that the problem is which side you trust (god or science), because your statement boils down to this: "You can side with 3000 year old human knowledge and morals or current human knowledge and morals. It just depends what age of humans you trust!). To me the idea that people think big issues like these should be solved by following what is said in an ancient book that claims the earth is flat is just scary.

Again much of the problem is the mistrust between the Christian and the atheist.

Don't mean to be rude here but that is your problem, not mine/ours. I, as an atheist, base my decisions and promote basing your decisions on current morality and current human knowledge. What Christianity has to say about abortion, or what Islam has to say about abortion or what Judaism has to say about abortion is not relevant to the specific discussion, because ancient religion should not give you a biased view on these things. When it does, you are better off withdrawing from the debate for the sake of mankind. We cannot and should not ever base our current ethics and morals on what was considered moral in a time where we had slaves, treated women like objects, where nearly everyone was a racial bigot and when we were terribly uneducated compared to now.

On top of that.. don't you think that bringing up a book like the bible, a book that promotes treating women like dirt, promotes rape, promotes slaughtering lots of innocent people including children and promotes selling your daughter(s) is not really fitting in a discussion about female rights? Don't you think that Christianity, a religion that doesn't even allow female priests, should keep it's mouth shut in discussions about female rights?

[Pastor4Jesus]

So does religion. In science though there a mechanisms for correction. The Bible still states a striped stick can influence the colors or pattern of an animal's offspring.

Again I am speaking of documented wrongs and frauds. And science claims that it must be falsifiable, thats the method. Religion claims to be truth. You may want to give me the verse etc to determine who was saying what you claim. It may of been part of a story etc taken out of context. I vaguely remember the verse (duet?) but I am not sure. And if religion is wrong we would not be murdering anyone as in the case of putting our faith in science, of course you already knew all of that but I thought I would provide the information for guests and others that may of actually believed your stories.

I contrast this with folks trying to stop the teaching of one of the most fundamental aspects of biology, based on their certainity of a god having produced folks from dust.

People are dust from the ground, star dust just as the bible said. We are the product of 2nd generation stars, hence star dust. We wouldn't even exist without a star ending its life in a Nova and spreading its elements to space to create the 2nd gen star and planets such as earth. Man was created by God giving man sentience, and Adam was a species of our common ancestor. If the bible would of said man was created out of wood it would of been incorrect. Nevertheless, you miss the point entirely. If religion was doing such a horrible thing such as teaching that man was created out of thin air who would that harm? Compare that with the real harm inflicted believing a lifetime of lies or worse. In any case, we are really talking about two completely different things.

As opposed to religious folks controlling such decisions. Here I think about those that are stoned to death for being raped by someone else. And these folks are already born.

I am a christian. I can not defend all religions for several reasons, not the least of being ignorance. Anyway concerning the christian religion, when was the last time something like a stoning happened? A few thousand years ago? Ha ha ha really! You are really grasping for straws! At least I got a good chuckle to wake me up, the exploding cereal phenomenon! Again if science is wrong about when life begins we are murdering people for the convenience of a lazy, or forgetful mom and dad.

Agreed. A very difficult decision I contend is best left to the mother and her doctor

No its best to outlaw abortions for convenience. To Murder or not to murder isn't a choice for mom and the doctor who usually has a vested interest in doing the procedure.
.

Plenty fair. I would encourage all to consider that abortion is the killing of a human, but that this very difficult decision should remain with the mother and her doctor.

If you agree, then we must say murder isn't a choice. I may want to murder someone for profit but I doubt that the DA would agree with me. Of course you will say that our secular legal system tells us in its faux majestic secular humanist influenced decision (man being the authority vanquishing natural law) that this time killing a human isn't murder! That's as convenient as having the abortion in the first place! And both conveniences are an crime if natural law were the legal law of the land.

To abort is not a decision to be made lightly and I don't think the mother and even the father if he has a moral bone in his body takes such a decision lightly most cases. However they should of thought about that before they had sex. Its irresponsible , and in the past when I was irresponsible I paid for it. I wasn't trying to harm anyone and I regretted my crime but still I had to pay my debt to society (two days in the pokey for having an accident while taking a legal RX). However if I had not been taking the pain killer and driving I doubt if I would of rear ended my hapless fellow man. So yes I was remorseful and all but still it was a crime.

I don't doubt that Christians are honestly, even admirably opposed to abortion, but I would still contend it is going to happen whether we provide safe places or not. My issue is one of allowing a safe environment for what is likely to occur anyway, as well as the potential unfairness that would arise by rich folks being able to pay to go to where abortions are allowed, or to just pay a doctor "under the table". I note here the Pastor does allow for reasonable exceptions.

We agree that there would be an increase in illegal abortions. We may be able to control some of the damage by offering counseling and a renewed vigor in placing children if brought to term. But I agree its problem.

Perfectly understandable (if unacceptable) when the issue of abortion / women's rights to their bodies comes up.

Its much easier to rationalize the procedure if one breaks it down into emotionless sound bytes such as its the right of the woman to do whatever with her body. Additionally, I know that many woman and some men think that the chance of abortion being 'murder' is so low, that its an acceptable risk. They feel that the pro lifers are so overbearing that they feel we are persecuting them from a platform of moral superiority. I agree that a handful may be doing that.

However I think a larger measure of pro lifers are truly horrified at the amount of abortions being performed and that these abortions are or could be taking a human life. That's the end game. We would rather err on the side of caution and place the responsibility of getting pregnant on the woman and the man. Its that simple. But nothing is really simple I suppose. At the very least there should be more responsibility for pregnancies. It's such a awful situation that I usually avoid getting involved in the politics except for donating a few dollars and praying for the best outcome whatever that is. Then we get to the specter of federally funded abortions...

P4JC

[Pastor4Jesus]

To me the idea that people think big issues like these should be solved by following what is said in an ancient book that claims the earth is flat is just scary.

That biblical wise men thought the earth was flat is debatable, try again.

Personally, the people that may be murdering hundreds of millions of helpless voiceless people (by ignorance or rationalization) is not only scary, its horrific. The problem is that science the near religion of some unbelievers and our legal system determined when someone could be considered human. Dangrous stuff that!

I am an amateur astronomer with way too much money tied up in my telescope and other stuff (the star drive and related gadgets). I love the other sciences and have a room full of rocks and fossils etc. We have created a technical civilization of haves (vs third world have nots) Pandora's box built on a foundation of a glass card house dependent on science. Not good. But I do love science, I simply dislike the authority that it has. It defines reality for most of the western world and this really began to happen during the 20's. Science wasn't always an authority. No I would of been much happier if we would of followed Godel and his metaphysical paradigm out of the Vienna circle instead of following the Logical positivest, and the scientific method who were his peers. I think we would be living in a paradise if that would of happened. (sorry for the discombobulated paragraph I am still sleepy)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/vienna-circle/

Don't mean to be rude here but that is your problem, not mine/ours. I, as an atheist, base my decisions and promote basing your decisions on current morality and current human knowledge..

Ha ha really Ms Mash! The problem is that your modern current knowledge will change in the morning. If it doesn't change the science truth of the next day will change just give it time. I wish I could put all the people that were pro abortion on a nice planet somewhere, the trouble is that we are in this together.

What Christianity has to say about abortion, or what Islam has to say about abortion or what Judaism has to say about abortion is not relevant to the specific discussion, because ancient religion should not give you a biased view on these things.

Why? I have demonstrated that science changes from one moment to the next, and you base a life and death decision on that? The modern science will be a quaint myth in a couple of hundred years.

When it does, you are better off withdrawing from the debate for the sake of mankind. We cannot and should not ever base our current ethics and morals on what was considered moral in a time where we had slaves, treated women like objects, where nearly everyone was a racial bigot and when we were terribly uneducated compared to now.

Again you are missing the point. Right and wrong does not have a time stamp on it, science sure does! You are willing to take the chance that abortion isn't murder by the awful track record of science, which has to be able to be falsifiable? If that's true isn't that reckless and irresponsible and in many cases selfish. It may one day be criminal.

On top of that.. don't you think that bringing up a book like the bible, a book that promotes treating women like dirt, promotes rape, promotes slaughtering lots of innocent people including children and promotes selling your daughter(s) is not really fitting in a discussion about female rights?

No I bring up a book when considered from an educated theological standpoint rather than one from ignorance that promotes the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Don't you think that Christianity, a religion that doesn't even allow female priests, should keep it's mouth shut in discussions about female rights?

No I think that those that kill unborn children because they are lazy or simply callous (just not wanting the child) and don't know how to keep their knees closed should be seen for what they are. I think that those men and women why think no more to kill an unborn than swat a fly should be educated in birth control techniques. Many become pregnant because of ignorance. Again, again do not understand whats at stake here and that tragic, or if not tragic something much worse.

P4JC

[Jayhawker Soule]

What is wrong with abortion?

There is nothing 'wrong' with abortion per se. There is, however, something wrong with the wanton taking of human life for convenience and with an evolving ethic which justifies it in the name of 'choice.' We have exchanged a belief in the sanctity of life for an insistence in the sanctity of unbounded personal prerogative. I am not at all suggesting that all abortion is characterized by such wantonness. I am, however, suggesting that we as a society have become increasingly resistant to acknowledging a meaningful difference between those that do and those that do not ...