Atheists Are Fools

[JoeyKnothead]

I see the Bible verse about 'the fool has said there is no god' bandied about by some of the forum members and it really does appall me. This kind of teaching is among the most insidious of all the Bible teachings, and it leads to the worst kind of beliefs. When a person holds this view, that those who disagree with you are evil, Satan, or fools, it really stops all attempts at understanding one another. To this atheist it is seen as a clear attempt to insult, and to slander. It prevents the theist from being able to accept new ideas, or ideas that clearly disprove a given biblical concept. It is no better than using the 'n' word, and no better than a child throwing a tantrum. When logic and reason can be short circuited by a simple phrase, then what is there left to debate?

What is even a bit sadder about the use of this term, its usually the ones holding the most foolish of ideas who dare claims someone else the fool. There is no shame in saying you think someone is wrong, and there should be no shame in being called wrong. But declaring an opponent in a debate forum a fool is the height of hypocrisy. What bigger fool could there be than one who would debate a fool?

The Christian religion uses these demonizing terms to stop debate. To stop honest discussion. To stop the honorable seeking of truth. Only a scared individual, or a scared ideology would use such tactics to defend itself. Only an ideology that knew it was questionable would dare try to stop someone's asking questions. A religion which has in itself a history of abuse, torture and murder of anyone who challenges it? And the atheist is the fool? What fool is there that would blindly adhere to something which he disagrees with?

I see often, in life and these forums, the Christian who will skirt around, under, or totally avoid discussion of the issue at hand. Many will resort to rhetorical trickery before they will discuss the issues, but they will call anyone who disagrees a witch. A fool. A demon. Who is so righteous they can make this declaration? Can we not agree that our differences are just that, differences, not demonic possessions? Why must someone who tries their best to understand this wonderful life we share always be a fool?

I'll tell you what a fool is. A fool is the person who has stopped learning. A fool is one who would declare they have the answers before they are even asked the question. They have stopped trying to understand people, and instead they want a chance to feel superior. How better to feel superior than to use the internet to call someone a fool. A faceless, otherwise anonymous debater, who comes in here to seek knowledge, and share their own. You would call them a fool? Have you never heard the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? If you have, and you continue to call those you are debating with a fool, then really, what is there left to say to you?

What is it going to take the Christian religion to realize that differences of opinion can actually be a good thing? They can lead to new discoveries, to new ideas, and to better understanding. Even wrong opinions have value, because they allow us to discuss why they are wrong, how to correct them, and how to prevent them in the future. Why is it foolish to take the sum total of all available information and come to a conclusion based on that information? You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool? I have only been in these forums for a short time, but I will tell you this, there are some highly intelligent folks here, from atheist to theist, and I have learned from them. I learned from them because I know if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I try to understand a person's point, even if I don't agree with it, I can learn about that person. And let me tell you, knowledge gained is good. It is good for the theist and the atheist alike. It is good because through understanding one another we can hopefully see that we are all wrong about something, we are all right about something, we are all bad for something, and we are all good for something. We are humans, each and every one of us, and we deserve a certain level of respect.

Atheists have families they love and care for. We have jobs we like, and jobs we hate. We have fears and dreams and wants and needs. We bleed red blood when we are cut. We have goals, and hopes, and we fail and we succeed. We do all of the things the religious do but one. Should the one single thing that separates us make us evil, or fools? Just because a book declares it? Just because one can hide behind a biblical passage, and deny a certain responsibility for declaring it? Are we really that bad that our lives are no better than a dog's? Really? Is there not some way we can be thought of as worthy of this life? Just because we don't believe a book? Just because we don't believe your book?

Ultimately I suppose I am here to 'preach atheism', but surely there can be a greater, more noble dialog.

[daedalus 2.0]

I've decided since theists are able to insult others, and there is no recourse to such abuse, I will no longer be coming to these forums. I don't care how theists try to twist it, calling someone a fool for their beliefs is an abuse. To not be able to respond in like kind to such abuse is unfair to its core, and I am not going to participate in a debate where one side holds themselves to a different standard of respect than they are willing to afford the other.

Its not about being called a fool so much as it is about what is fair. I used an equal term to fool to describe the Christian belief, and I was chastised, rightly, but there was still no change in the rules. I just can't accept that anyone would be allowed to call my belief 'foolish' while my response is punished.

I met some great folks on these forums, and wish everyone the best in what they seek.

This pretty much voids your so-called apology. Apparently holding contradictory viewpoints simultaneously seems to be a new trend for many atheist debators lately...and, oh yes, it is considered both "logical" and rational." .

Can belief in God kill you?

Monday, 13 August 2001

Faith is not always helpful to health.
Religious beliefs are not always a source of comfort during ill health: they may actually increase your risk of dying.

A study of nearly 600 older hospital patients (95 per cent of whom were Christian) showed negative feelings evoked by religious beliefs sometimes predicted mortality.

Key factors that increased the risk of death were feelings of being "abandoned or punished" by God, "believing the devil caused the illness", or "feeling abandoned by one's faith community", the study by researchers at Duke University Medical Center and Bowling Green State University showed.

"The study reminds us that religion ... can, at times, be a source of problems in itself," says lead author Kenneth Pargament.

everal studies have demonstrated a reduced risk of death among those who attend church regularly, but the new research, published in today's Archives of Internal Medicine, is the first to examine negative aspects of religiousness.

Patients who reported feeling alienated from God or who blamed the devil had a 19 to 28 per cent increased risk of dying during the following two years, say the researchers, who found no association between gender, race, diagnosis, brain function, independence, depression, or quality of life with mortality.

But, that's ok. It's not logical or rational to want to live, right? So, as long as you have faith, its good... right?

[faith]

I have a favourite atheist who is not only intelligent but has really thought through his reasons for his disbelief. He has never had a faith as a child went alone with what he was told and then when he could decided it was false.

I'm curious. This person never made you question your fundamentalist perspective?

My favourite atheist has made me question my fundamentalist perspective.
I also have an immense amount of respect for the way in which he did this.

Love Faith.xx

[Beto]

I have a favourite atheist who is not only intelligent but has really thought through his reasons for his disbelief. He has never had a faith as a child went alone with what he was told and then when he could decided it was false.

I'm curious. This person never made you question your fundamentalist perspective?

My favourite atheist has made me question my fundamentalist perspective.
I also have an immense amount of respect for the way in which he did this.

In that case, I'm not entirely sure I agree with your self-assessment. Which is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. What do you understand as being "fundamentalist"?

[JoeyKnothead]

So there it is. Nope, I have no intention of leaving the forums.

I got a broken leg at work recently, and I've been taking pain pills like crazy. One of them makes me even more of a jerk than I already am, and I had promised to not come online when taking them. I apologize yet again for acting like jerk, but if you've gone through the pain I have, you'd know why I was on the pills.

I will not be coming back online unless I have a clear head, and I will continue to try to make amends for treating people rudely in the past.

As to the assertion of someone being a fool, it is part and parcel of religion to demean anyone that would disagree. What better way to get your point across than by discouraging any debate on the merits of what you seek to preach.

[Evales]

Being agnostic. I find the phrase
"A fool has said in his heart there is no God"
to be true.

It is basically like saying that you KNOW there isn't. We can not know something like that. We have no ways of measuring God and thus cannot prove his existence, but we also have no way to prove that he does not exist.

There are many things that we have not witnessed and yet we use them to explain things. For example the sting theory. Or the theory of the Big Bang. God is a theory.

[JoeyKnothead]

Being agnostic. I find the phrase
"A fool has said in his heart there is no God"
to be true.

It is basically like saying that you KNOW there isn't. We can not know something like that. We have no ways of measuring God and thus cannot prove his existence, but we also have no way to prove that he does not exist.

There are many things that we have not witnessed and yet we use them to explain things. For example the sting theory. Or the theory of the Big Bang. God is a theory.

But if a call someone a retard for their believing I get in trouble, that's the gist of the argument. I totally understand why religion needs to demonize those who disagree with it, as they have no proof for it. What the argument is about is the double standard of allowing someone to use this as an insult, or outside of any debate, or as a signature.

As a point of debate I have no problems with terms like 'satan got ahold of ya' or the quote in question even. Using it as a signature is an insult, but it was deemed acceptable merely because it was in the Bible. The bible says we oughta stone folks, are we to do that as well?

Particularly in a forum that bills itself as a place for civil discourse, I find allowing such language outside of debate to be the very definition of a double standard.

[faith]

joeyknuccione"]

But if a call someone a retard for their believing I get in trouble, that's the gist of the argument. I totally understand why religion needs to demonize those who disagree with it, as they have no proof for it. What the argument is about is the double standard of allowing someone to use this as an insult, or outside of any debate, or as a signature.

Hi Joey,

Glad to see you're still with us. Why would you need to call someone a retard because they believed differently to you? Christians have proof enough for themselves, they have no proof to show anyone else. If you study Christianity you will see you have a lot of misconceptions about the faith. I thing it was daedalus who earlier on said the Christians say " It is not us it is God in the bible calling people fools." I think it is about how we perceive things. Is it foolish to run out in front of a speeding car? Well saying someone is doing something foolish would give him the name fool. But at the same time we have to remember it is not name calling but rather saying it is foolish to do such things. I am sure DD will have a come back.

As a point of debate I have no problems with terms like 'satan got ahold of ya' or the quote in question even. Using it as a signature is an insult, but it was deemed acceptable merely because it was in the Bible. The bible says we oughta stone folks, are we to do that as well?

Pass me that brick.. only rock cakes I am afraid. I think your getting the idea it is not meant to tell you that your a fool but that God looks on people who do not believe as being foolish. Completely different.

Particularly in a forum that bills itself as a place for civil discourse, I find allowing such language outside of debate to be the very definition of a double standard.

The way you have spoken about the christian faith shows that you are as guilty as the bible. You are trying to say that free speech is not allowed even when discussing something that is a material fact to Christianity. You want to remove the rights of others so you can offend others with any redress back to yourself of what the bible says. When in all truth the person quoting the bible, you are insulting by saying they are insulting you by using it.

The bible says, " The fool hath said in his heart there is not God." Well if there is a God and knowing what else the bible says, then he would be a fool, would he not?
What it is not doing is saying Joey is a fool because your name is not mentioned.You have to learn to seperate what a person is saying what the bible says to what they are saying about you personally. The truth of the saying is that if God is real then we would be foolish not having believed. But as God has not yet appeared it is just that. A saying and also a warning, nothing more. I cannot see how you can claim to be offended. You don't believe the bible to be true so what is your problem?

Love Faith.xx

[JoeyKnothead]

Seems I lack the intellectual capacity to explain how calling someone who does not believe in God a fool is wrong. I further lack the mental skills required to show why allowing said language, while disallowing rebuttal language is a double standard.

](*,)

[McCulloch]

But if a call someone a retard for their believing I get in trouble, that's the gist of the argument. I totally understand why religion needs to demonize those who disagree with it, as they have no proof for it. What the argument is about is the double standard of allowing someone to use this as an insult, or outside of any debate, or as a signature.

As a point of debate I have no problems with terms like 'satan got ahold of ya' or the quote in question even. Using it as a signature is an insult, but it was deemed acceptable merely because it was in the Bible. The bible says we oughta stone folks, are we to do that as well?

Particularly in a forum that bills itself as a place for civil discourse, I find allowing such language outside of debate to be the very definition of a double standard.

It would be against the rules if someone said that atheists are morons.

The only reason why this apparent breach of the rules is allowed is that it is a quote from the Bible. The moderators discussed it, and concluded that censoring the Bible in a forum about debating Christianity cannot be done. I suppose that if you were to quote another religious text that stated something bad about Christians, that would have to be allowed.

[McCulloch]

It is not us it is God in the bible calling people fools.

That is the typical evasion of the Christians. You project your own prejudices on to God and then refuse to take personal ownership of them.

I think your [you're] getting the idea it is not meant to tell you that your [you're] a fool but that God looks on people who do not believe as being foolish. Completely different.

I don't see the difference. The way it was used in a signature without context or explanation, it was clearly being used as an insult.

The bible says, " The fool hath said in his heart there is not God." Well if there is a God and knowing what else the bible says, then he would be a fool, would he not?

Agreed, if there is a God and that God wants us to believe in Him, we would be foolish to not believe. God however, if he exists, has done a very good job of hiding his existence from many people who are arguably not fools.

You don't believe the bible to be true so what is your problem?

You don't believe Joey, so why would you get offended if he called you a moron for believing? Can't you see that it is the same?