Atheists Are Fools

[JoeyKnothead]

I see the Bible verse about 'the fool has said there is no god' bandied about by some of the forum members and it really does appall me. This kind of teaching is among the most insidious of all the Bible teachings, and it leads to the worst kind of beliefs. When a person holds this view, that those who disagree with you are evil, Satan, or fools, it really stops all attempts at understanding one another. To this atheist it is seen as a clear attempt to insult, and to slander. It prevents the theist from being able to accept new ideas, or ideas that clearly disprove a given biblical concept. It is no better than using the 'n' word, and no better than a child throwing a tantrum. When logic and reason can be short circuited by a simple phrase, then what is there left to debate?

What is even a bit sadder about the use of this term, its usually the ones holding the most foolish of ideas who dare claims someone else the fool. There is no shame in saying you think someone is wrong, and there should be no shame in being called wrong. But declaring an opponent in a debate forum a fool is the height of hypocrisy. What bigger fool could there be than one who would debate a fool?

The Christian religion uses these demonizing terms to stop debate. To stop honest discussion. To stop the honorable seeking of truth. Only a scared individual, or a scared ideology would use such tactics to defend itself. Only an ideology that knew it was questionable would dare try to stop someone's asking questions. A religion which has in itself a history of abuse, torture and murder of anyone who challenges it? And the atheist is the fool? What fool is there that would blindly adhere to something which he disagrees with?

I see often, in life and these forums, the Christian who will skirt around, under, or totally avoid discussion of the issue at hand. Many will resort to rhetorical trickery before they will discuss the issues, but they will call anyone who disagrees a witch. A fool. A demon. Who is so righteous they can make this declaration? Can we not agree that our differences are just that, differences, not demonic possessions? Why must someone who tries their best to understand this wonderful life we share always be a fool?

I'll tell you what a fool is. A fool is the person who has stopped learning. A fool is one who would declare they have the answers before they are even asked the question. They have stopped trying to understand people, and instead they want a chance to feel superior. How better to feel superior than to use the internet to call someone a fool. A faceless, otherwise anonymous debater, who comes in here to seek knowledge, and share their own. You would call them a fool? Have you never heard the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? If you have, and you continue to call those you are debating with a fool, then really, what is there left to say to you?

What is it going to take the Christian religion to realize that differences of opinion can actually be a good thing? They can lead to new discoveries, to new ideas, and to better understanding. Even wrong opinions have value, because they allow us to discuss why they are wrong, how to correct them, and how to prevent them in the future. Why is it foolish to take the sum total of all available information and come to a conclusion based on that information? You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool? I have only been in these forums for a short time, but I will tell you this, there are some highly intelligent folks here, from atheist to theist, and I have learned from them. I learned from them because I know if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I try to understand a person's point, even if I don't agree with it, I can learn about that person. And let me tell you, knowledge gained is good. It is good for the theist and the atheist alike. It is good because through understanding one another we can hopefully see that we are all wrong about something, we are all right about something, we are all bad for something, and we are all good for something. We are humans, each and every one of us, and we deserve a certain level of respect.

Atheists have families they love and care for. We have jobs we like, and jobs we hate. We have fears and dreams and wants and needs. We bleed red blood when we are cut. We have goals, and hopes, and we fail and we succeed. We do all of the things the religious do but one. Should the one single thing that separates us make us evil, or fools? Just because a book declares it? Just because one can hide behind a biblical passage, and deny a certain responsibility for declaring it? Are we really that bad that our lives are no better than a dog's? Really? Is there not some way we can be thought of as worthy of this life? Just because we don't believe a book? Just because we don't believe your book?

Ultimately I suppose I am here to 'preach atheism', but surely there can be a greater, more noble dialog.

[twobitsmedia]

I see the Bible verse about 'the fool has said there is no god' bandied about by some of the forum members and it really does appall me. This kind of teaching is among the most insidious of all the Bible teachings, and it leads to the worst kind of beliefs. When a person holds this view, that those who disagree with you are evil, Satan, or fools, it really stops all attempts at understanding one another. To this atheist it is seen as a clear attempt to insult, and to slander. It prevents the theist from being able to accept new ideas, or ideas that clearly disprove a given biblical concept. It is no better than using the 'n' word, and no better than a child throwing a tantrum. When logic and reason can be short circuited by a simple phrase, then what is there left to debate?

What is even a bit sadder about the use of this term, its usually the ones holding the most foolish of ideas who dare claims someone else the fool. There is no shame in saying you think someone is wrong, and there should be no shame in being called wrong. But declaring an opponent in a debate forum a fool is the height of hypocrisy. What bigger fool could there be than one who would debate a fool?

The Christian religion uses these demonizing terms to stop debate. To stop honest discussion. To stop the honorable seeking of truth. Only a scared individual, or a scared ideology would use such tactics to defend itself. Only an ideology that knew it was questionable would dare try to stop someone's asking questions. A religion which has in itself a history of abuse, torture and murder of anyone who challenges it? And the atheist is the fool? What fool is there that would blindly adhere to something which he disagrees with?

I see often, in life and these forums, the Christian who will skirt around, under, or totally avoid discussion of the issue at hand. Many will resort to rhetorical trickery before they will discuss the issues, but they will call anyone who disagrees a witch. A fool. A demon. Who is so righteous they can make this declaration? Can we not agree that our differences are just that, differences, not demonic possessions? Why must someone who tries their best to understand this wonderful life we share always be a fool?

I'll tell you what a fool is. A fool is the person who has stopped learning. A fool is one who would declare they have the answers before they are even asked the question. They have stopped trying to understand people, and instead they want a chance to feel superior. How better to feel superior than to use the internet to call someone a fool. A faceless, otherwise anonymous debater, who comes in here to seek knowledge, and share their own. You would call them a fool? Have you never heard the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? If you have, and you continue to call those you are debating with a fool, then really, what is there left to say to you?

What is it going to take the Christian religion to realize that differences of opinion can actually be a good thing? They can lead to new discoveries, to new ideas, and to better understanding. Even wrong opinions have value, because they allow us to discuss why they are wrong, how to correct them, and how to prevent them in the future. Why is it foolish to take the sum total of all available information and come to a conclusion based on that information? You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool? I have only been in these forums for a short time, but I will tell you this, there are some highly intelligent folks here, from atheist to theist, and I have learned from them. I learned from them because I know if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I try to understand a person's point, even if I don't agree with it, I can learn about that person. And let me tell you, knowledge gained is good. It is good for the theist and the atheist alike. It is good because through understanding one another we can hopefully see that we are all wrong about something, we are all right about something, we are all bad for something, and we are all good for something. We are humans, each and every one of us, and we deserve a certain level of respect.

Atheists have families they love and care for. We have jobs we like, and jobs we hate. We have fears and dreams and wants and needs. We bleed red blood when we are cut. We have goals, and hopes, and we fail and we succeed. We do all of the things the religious do but one. Should the one single thing that separates us make us evil, or fools? Just because a book declares it? Just because one can hide behind a biblical passage, and deny a certain responsibility for declaring it? Are we really that bad that our lives are no better than a dog's? Really? Is there not some way we can be thought of as worthy of this life? Just because we don't believe a book? Just because we don't believe your book?

Ultimately I suppose I am here to 'preach atheism', but surely there can be a greater, more noble dialog.

Before I respond (only to the verse question, not everything else you wrote), why do you think the verse applies to you? (or is directed at you?)

[OnceConvinced]

Joey, I agree with you completely. You make very valid points.

The whole "only a fool would deny the existance of God" argument is clearly man made. It was written by self righteous men of ignorance who did not approve of ideas that disagreed with their's.

God (if what the bible says about him is true) would surely understand those who don't believe. He created them the way they are and would understand that not all people are going to believe in him when he chooses to remain invisible. He would understand that creation is not going to convince everyone either. He created people with certain personalities and as such would expect them to behave a certain way and be sceptical about certain things.

Those who believe that unbelievers are fools because they don't believe, are generally very stubborn, closed minded people, set in their ways, not willing to use common sense but just wish to parrot what it says in the bible. That is certainly not wisdom.

Wisdom is also being able to think for yourself and come up with your own answers. It's thinking logically and being able to discern what is true and what isn't. (or at least be able to consider those possibilities). Wisdom is not claiming to be wise just because of what something says in the bible.

If one has any knowledge of people and personalities, one can see that they are not necessarily fools, that they can be intelligent, thoughtful and logical people.

[Beto]

I heard an advert sometime ago, where a person said something like "he was no fool to let that opportunity pass by". It's an age-old concept. Who wants to be a fool? I can't really say where the line between "foolishness" and "gullibility" is drawn. It's mighty tenuous.

[JoeyKnothead]

'Preciate the support. What really gets my goat about this issue is if I say something insulting I rightfully am sanctioned, but since its in the Bible seems Christians are allowed to keep repeating it over and over.

Its not about being called a fool, I'm plenty smart enough to know I'm not. What I see as important is someone can use the Bible to insult me, but I can't use my words to insult back.

So I'm just gonna start spamming any post that does this until the moderators can sort it out.

I'm all for free speech, but that's a two lane road.

As for twobitsmedia, if my explanation/OP does not explain it, I really don't know what will.

[twobitsmedia]

'Preciate the support. What really gets my goat about this issue is if I say something insulting I rightfully am sanctioned, but since its in the Bible seems Christians are allowed to keep repeating it over and over.

Its not about being called a fool, I'm plenty smart enough to know I'm not. What I see as important is someone can use the Bible to insult me, but I can't use my words to insult back.

So I'm just gonna start spamming any post that does this until the moderators can sort it out.

I'm all for free speech, but that's a two lane road.

As for twobitsmedia, if my explanation/OP does not explain it, I really don't know what will.

I do not have any reason to believe that anything in your OP is true because just after your wrote this":

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool?

You added this to a post on another thread:

The retard has said in his heart: there is a God"

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 0&start=50

[JoeyKnothead]

Typical, totally look over the reason why I did so.

Your signature is an insult to anyone who disagrees with your point of view. By allowing you to post such a hateful message in your signature the moderators are implicitly accepting your message, and endorsing it.

When I am insulted I will make it my mission in life to point it out and respond to it. I will prove my hate stronger and more valid, I will prove my hate just as stupid and wrong as yours.

As I've stated above, I have no qualms with insults, but there ought to be a right to respond.

When one side is allowed to spread a hateful message, I will join them in doing so. I will be just as ugly and vulgar as they are. I do so explicitly to point out the wrongness of it. Only your hatred is 'God given'. You are taught to hate. I am hating as a result of hate. It is okay to hate hate. It is not okay to hate simply because someone disagrees.

I am trying to prove just how wrong it is to hate. What you fail to realize is I don't believe any of the hatred I'm spewing, I am pointing out how wrong it is for someone to hide behind a religious doctrine of hatred. A codification of hatred. An acceptance of hatred. A teaching of hatred.

Just because your religion compels you to demonize anyone who disagrees, or anything that you don't understand does not mean I have to accept it. I don't have to rely on a book to tell me that calling someone a fool for not accepting my ideology is wrong.

If you are allowed to call me a fool simply because I don't believe your brand of religion, then I reserve the right to accuse you of the same dang foolishness.

I have made numerous posts addressing the wrongness of hate speech, and if it takes me having to write hate speech to point it out then so be it.

As before I will continue in protest until the moderators sort it out.

Either I will be banned, or we will all treat each other with respect.

[twobitsmedia]

Typical, totally look over the reason why I did so.

Your signature is an insult to anyone who disagrees with your point of view.

No it is not.

By allowing you to post such a hateful message in your signature the moderators are implicitly accepting your message, and endorsing it.

I believe they may or may not understand the meaning of it, but they do know it is from the Bible, which is usually considered "Christian" doctrine.

When I am insulted I will make it my mission in life to point it out and respond to it. I will prove my hate stronger and more valid, I will prove my hate just as stupid and wrong as yours.

That would not take much because I don't carry much hatred, if any.

When one side is allowed to spread a hateful message, I will join them in doing so. I will be just as ugly and vulgar as they are. I do so explicitly to point out the wrongness of it. Only your hatred is 'God given'. You are taught to hate. I am hating as a result of hate. It is okay to hate hate. It is not okay to hate simply because someone disagrees.

Again, it is not so.

I am trying to prove just how wrong it is to hate. What you fail to realize is I don't believe any of the hatred I'm spewing, I am pointing out how wrong it is for someone to hide behind a religious doctrine of hatred. A codification of hatred. An acceptance of hatred. A teaching of hatred.

Then you might wish to understand the meaning.

Just because your religion compels you to demonize anyone who disagrees, or anything that you don't understand does not mean I have to accept it. I don't have to rely on a book to tell me that calling someone a fool for not accepting my ideology is wrong.

I don't have a religion, and if I did, it would not compel anyone to hate.

If you are allowed to call me a fool simply because I don't believe your brand of religion, then I reserve the right to accuse you of the same dang foolishness.

You can, but again, that is not what the verse says.

I have made numerous posts addressing the wrongness of hate speech, and if it takes me having to write hate speech to point it out then so be it.

As before I will continue in protest until the moderators sort it out.

Either I will be banned, or we will all treat each other with respect.

I am not aware of you being treated with disrepsect.

However, let me sort out the reason I wanted to know WHY you think it applies to you. I am not sure if it does nor not since you did not respond directly.

The verse is a logical statement. "A fool has said in his heart: there is no God." It is logical, because logic when applied properly does not answer the question of whether there is or isn't a God. Science does not address "spirit." So, the logical hypothesis for many an atheist is: there is no God that meets my standard of what is logical. That is not saying "there is not any God" it just says they "do not find the realiy of God convincing." Whether i agree with that or not is of no consequence, but they have considered, usually, the information they have, interpreted it accordingly, and reach their conclusion. The "fool" part , and I tread water I suppose by trying to explain this and hope it is not misunderstood, is when someone just claims "There is no God!" and believes that settles the issue. I find very few people who actually ever do that, but when someone really does say "IN HIS HEART" there is no God, then the argument really does appear to be "foolish" in the sense that they reach conclusions that they may not have evidence for, but neither do they have evidence against. But instead they fill in the gaps with what is "in their heart." As a rule, no one needs to label a fool a fool. A fool will be self-evident in their approach and the way they argue. I hope that is clear and that if you have a question you will ask before assuming.

[JoeyKnothead]

Your signature is an insult to anyone who disagrees with your point of view.

No it is not.

Your religious indoctrination has insulated your ability to see just how hate filled it can be. It has declared your brand of religiosity to be so right and good, all the while teaching you that its okay to hate anyone who disagrees. But you can not see this, because your religion has taught you that you are the righteous, and those who disagree are fools, evil, or worse. You hide behind its hateful message because you know no other way. You know no better.

I believe they may or may not understand the meaning of it, but they do know it is from the Bible, which is usually considered "Christian" doctrine.

See, you have been indoctrinated to call anyone who disagrees with you hateful, foul language. You see no problem with this because it is PART OF YOUR RELIGION. It is par for the course. It is acceptable to your religion to besmirch anyone who would dare think for themselves.

That would not take much because I don't carry much hatred, if any.

Exactly my point, you declare anyone who doesn't accept your point of view, yet you can't understand how your hate speech is just that. Your religious indoctrination has blinded you to this reality. It has reinforced in your mind the rightness of your view, and the evilness of those who don't share that view.

Then you might wish to understand the meaning.

That's just it, I do understand the meaning. Only your indoctrination has given you the belief that it is okay to hate anyone different from you, and teach you that spewing your bile should be accepted by those with whom you disagree.

I don't have a religion, and if I did, it would not compel anyone to hate.

Then you were born hating those who don't believe in God?

I am not aware of you being treated with disrepsect.

However, let me sort out the reason I wanted to know WHY you think it applies to you. I am not sure if it does nor not since you did not respond directly.

Again, you do not see why it is so hateful because you are so sure of the correctness of your position you are blinded to anything else. It doesn't apply to me? To atheists? Really? Are you too mentally dysfunctional to understand why? If I have to explain, after all we've gone over in this thread alone, why it is hateful, you will never understand.

Don't even try to prove it is based in logic. If you fail to see why it is not then there is no explanation that will show you exactly why it is not. Its a blanket statement of hatred for all who disagree with your interpretation of religion.

You wish that I would ask before assuming, but you, by your signature, assume all are fools who disagree with you. Give me a break.

[twobitsmedia]

You wish that I would ask before assuming, but you, by your signature, assume all are fools who disagree with you. Give me a break.

Then you are free to hold that position if you wish albeit a wrong one. Good day.