Atheists Are Fools

[JoeyKnothead]

I see the Bible verse about 'the fool has said there is no god' bandied about by some of the forum members and it really does appall me. This kind of teaching is among the most insidious of all the Bible teachings, and it leads to the worst kind of beliefs. When a person holds this view, that those who disagree with you are evil, Satan, or fools, it really stops all attempts at understanding one another. To this atheist it is seen as a clear attempt to insult, and to slander. It prevents the theist from being able to accept new ideas, or ideas that clearly disprove a given biblical concept. It is no better than using the 'n' word, and no better than a child throwing a tantrum. When logic and reason can be short circuited by a simple phrase, then what is there left to debate?

What is even a bit sadder about the use of this term, its usually the ones holding the most foolish of ideas who dare claims someone else the fool. There is no shame in saying you think someone is wrong, and there should be no shame in being called wrong. But declaring an opponent in a debate forum a fool is the height of hypocrisy. What bigger fool could there be than one who would debate a fool?

The Christian religion uses these demonizing terms to stop debate. To stop honest discussion. To stop the honorable seeking of truth. Only a scared individual, or a scared ideology would use such tactics to defend itself. Only an ideology that knew it was questionable would dare try to stop someone's asking questions. A religion which has in itself a history of abuse, torture and murder of anyone who challenges it? And the atheist is the fool? What fool is there that would blindly adhere to something which he disagrees with?

I see often, in life and these forums, the Christian who will skirt around, under, or totally avoid discussion of the issue at hand. Many will resort to rhetorical trickery before they will discuss the issues, but they will call anyone who disagrees a witch. A fool. A demon. Who is so righteous they can make this declaration? Can we not agree that our differences are just that, differences, not demonic possessions? Why must someone who tries their best to understand this wonderful life we share always be a fool?

I'll tell you what a fool is. A fool is the person who has stopped learning. A fool is one who would declare they have the answers before they are even asked the question. They have stopped trying to understand people, and instead they want a chance to feel superior. How better to feel superior than to use the internet to call someone a fool. A faceless, otherwise anonymous debater, who comes in here to seek knowledge, and share their own. You would call them a fool? Have you never heard the expression, "You catch more flies with honey"? If you have, and you continue to call those you are debating with a fool, then really, what is there left to say to you?

What is it going to take the Christian religion to realize that differences of opinion can actually be a good thing? They can lead to new discoveries, to new ideas, and to better understanding. Even wrong opinions have value, because they allow us to discuss why they are wrong, how to correct them, and how to prevent them in the future. Why is it foolish to take the sum total of all available information and come to a conclusion based on that information? You are wrong about believing there is a God. But you're not a fool. You're not evil. You're just wrong. Surely we can get along long enough to debate why I am correct, or you are, without having to declare one another fools, or worse.

I will declare all who believe in a God wrong. But a fool? I have only been in these forums for a short time, but I will tell you this, there are some highly intelligent folks here, from atheist to theist, and I have learned from them. I learned from them because I know if I keep my mind open, I can learn. If I try to understand a person's point, even if I don't agree with it, I can learn about that person. And let me tell you, knowledge gained is good. It is good for the theist and the atheist alike. It is good because through understanding one another we can hopefully see that we are all wrong about something, we are all right about something, we are all bad for something, and we are all good for something. We are humans, each and every one of us, and we deserve a certain level of respect.

Atheists have families they love and care for. We have jobs we like, and jobs we hate. We have fears and dreams and wants and needs. We bleed red blood when we are cut. We have goals, and hopes, and we fail and we succeed. We do all of the things the religious do but one. Should the one single thing that separates us make us evil, or fools? Just because a book declares it? Just because one can hide behind a biblical passage, and deny a certain responsibility for declaring it? Are we really that bad that our lives are no better than a dog's? Really? Is there not some way we can be thought of as worthy of this life? Just because we don't believe a book? Just because we don't believe your book?

Ultimately I suppose I am here to 'preach atheism', but surely there can be a greater, more noble dialog.

[C-Nub]

You had me at "I agree."

I think a lot of Christians feel sorry for atheists, and while they are certainly mistaken and, no offense to them intended, a little ignorant for doing so, we're just as mistaken and ignorant for taking offense to it when we do. It's a fairly classic and common example of people doing something wrong for the best reasons. Or what they think are good reasons but is really some sort of spiritual co-dependancy, as the more who believe you have around you, the less able any one individual is able to cast a shadow over your faith. Either way, Christians think that they have something great in their lives that we don't because they believe in the magic people from the bible. Personally, I think I have something that Christians don't, which is the % of my lifespan I have not wasted in prayer, bible study, and church-groups that they have so thoroughly squandered.

But even if we change the context, if I were to walk up to anyone here on the street and tell them they were an idiot because I didn't like their hat (or shoes or nose or skin color or breath or height or physical deformity or tattoos) then it wouldn't be 'hate,' because all I'm doing is expressing to them that I'm a disapproving moron (and possibly bigot.)

It's a word that gets thrown around a lot, when really, "mild dislike" would cover it just as easily with a lot less melodrama.

[FinalEnigma]

I realize that if I stick might not get it back, but I do feel an injustice has been done.

I have no problem with theists quoting scriptures to make an argument, but to quote scripture in your signature that is blatantly insulting seems a little much. It isn't even a matter of interpretation.

This is a forum for respectful and civil debate. Even if somebody is a fool, you can't call him that. At least not here.

If I were to declare. "I do not believe in god-he is impossible. There is no God."(note, not my stance, just an example) then twobits' signature would be blatantly calling me a fool. Now, that may not be what he intended by it, but that's what it says. You cannot insult people based upon their beliefs on this forum and that is precisely what that verse does. And to place a quote in your signature is an endorsement totally unrelated to a debate-so now it's an endorsement of calling atheists fools

Now personally I don't have a major problem with twobits statement-but for moderators to say that it is acceptable is the same as to say that you are allowed to insult people-as long as you are quoting the insult from your particular scripture-because the verse in his signature is blatantly an insult.

As i said before, I have no problem quoting scripture in a debate-even insulting scripture. to ban such would be ridiculous. but to ban insulting scripture from signatures would not be, and would seem to me to be quite reasonable.

[daedalus 2.0]

I realize that if I stick might not get it back, but I do feel an injustice has been done.

I have no problem with theists quoting scriptures to make an argument, but to quote scripture in your signature that is blatantly insulting seems a little much. It isn't even a matter of interpretation.

This is a forum for respectful and civil debate. Even if somebody is a fool, you can't call him that. At least not here.

If I were to declare. "I do not believe in god-he is impossible. There is no God."(note, not my stance, just an example) then twobits' signature would be blatantly calling me a fool. Now, that may not be what he intended by it, but that's what it says. You cannot insult people based upon their beliefs on this forum and that is precisely what that verse does. And to place a quote in your signature is an endorsement totally unrelated to a debate-so now it's an endorsement of calling atheists fools

Now personally I don't have a major problem with twobits statement-but for moderators to say that it is acceptable is the same as to say that you are allowed to insult people-as long as you are quoting the insult from your particular scripture-because the verse in his signature is blatantly an insult.

As i said before, I have no problem quoting scripture in a debate-even insulting scripture. to ban such would be ridiculous. but to ban insulting scripture from signatures would not be, and would seem to me to be quite reasonable.

As it was said:

It is ok to use a quote to insult someone. That is, the quote isn't being personal, just a general opinion.

For example, put one of these in your siggy and let them smoke it:

"I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," Helmuth Nyborg.

The study found that the strength of religious belief in countries was inversely related to their average IQ. The countries with higher IQs on average had significantly lower levels of religious belief than those with lower average IQs.

The children of highly religious parents suffer diminished IQs - averaging 7 to 10 points lower compared to their non-religious counterparts in similar socio-economic groups.

Several research studies have been published on the statistical relationship between religiosity and educational level, or religiosity and IQ. Michael Shermer, in How We Believe: The Search for God in an Age of Science, describes a large survey of randomly chosen Americans that he and his colleague Frank Sulloway carried out. [...] Religiosity is indeed negatively correlated with education (more highly educated people are less likely to be religious). Religiosity is also negatively correlated with interest in science. [...]

Just don't say, "Hey, [insert theist name here], you're an idiot."

[faith]

A little like pot calling kettle black.

If we are honest the atheists on this thread alone have given inuendo and written things that insult Christians.


I have a favourite atheist who is not only intelligent but has really thought through his reasons for his disbelief. He has never had a faith as a child went alone with what he was told and then when he could decided it was false.
I respect him more than most Christians I know. All this about Christians insulting atheists and the self-pity on the thread I am sure is just a wind-up, isn't it Joe?

Being an atheist or a christian does not stop us being human. They do not make us bad mannered of rude. To get away from these traits in human nature we would have to leave the planet. You can book tickets now I believe in America.

I love all you atheists but not as much as my favourite one.

Love Faith.xx

[Beto]

I have a favourite atheist who is not only intelligent but has really thought through his reasons for his disbelief. He has never had a faith as a child went alone with what he was told and then when he could decided it was false.

I'm curious. This person never made you question your fundamentalist perspective?

[JoeyKnothead]

I've decided since theists are able to insult others, and there is no recourse to such abuse, I will no longer be coming to these forums. I don't care how theists try to twist it, calling someone a fool for their beliefs is an abuse. To not be able to respond in like kind to such abuse is unfair to its core, and I am not going to participate in a debate where one side holds themselves to a different standard of respect than they are willing to afford the other.

Its not about being called a fool so much as it is about what is fair. I used an equal term to fool to describe the Christian belief, and I was chastised, rightly, but there was still no change in the rules. I just can't accept that anyone would be allowed to call my belief 'foolish' while my response is punished.

I met some great folks on these forums, and wish everyone the best in what they seek.

[Beto]

I wish you'd stay, joey. Who says we need a level playing field? What matters is to continue challenging theistic unsupported assertions for any kid that may wander in here looking for answers. You know what I mean?

[daedalus 2.0]

Re: the OP.

Isn't it telling that after all the claims by Xians that their book is the "Good Book"; all the requests for some substantial evidence of their god, all the denials by them that Xianity is all about fear of Hell, etc that the one thing they resort to - the thing all of these conversations have resulted in is one passage in their Bible saying, essentially:

"If you don't agree with me, you are a fool"

But its worse. They don't even have the courage to say that. They say, "oh, but it's not me that says it - its god!"

Who made them choose their religion? Themselves.

Its the most cowardly act to call someone a fool through someone else.

"You know my friend Ashley? Like, ya know, she said you were, like, dumb, and, ya know, she's smart and all. I mean, I'm not saying it, ya know, she's saying it."

2000 years of Xianity and this is what Xian offer to society? An insult and a threat.

We always knew this about religion, but now we have proof. Congrats 2bm and swordsy, you are true representatives of Xianity. You are both perfect Xians.

Representin'!

[C-Nub]

I think a little perspective would go a long ways here. No one threatened your family or wished your kids would get cancer and die in a car fire. A quote, in a signature, called us 'fools' for not believing in magic. Not only is it really, really, really easy to refute that argument, but honestly, I know like sixty words that are a lot worse than 'fool.'

On top of that, it IS a biblical quote, and if we(you) want to fight back, there's tons of quotes in the various bibles that make them look pretty stupid. Bits about women being property or disobidient children being deserving of having stones thrown at them.

Personally, I just finished saying that I believe that all Christians are ignorant, strictly by the definition of the word, in that there's 'the truth' and what they believe, and that the two ideas aren't anywhere near the same.

So, Joey, I've enjoyed your contributions so far, and to be blunt, man up. It's not the end of the world, nor is it some great, far reaching tyranny on the part of the administrators. It's a biblical quote and I've scrolled past it a hundred times already, and all it makes me do is scoff at the person who thinks it says something worthwhile. Letting one little thing like this drive you out of a place you've otherwise enjoyed is overreacting, and doing it the way you are, which includes unnecessary posts in topics that have absolutely nothing to do with your issue, is childish. I'd prefer if you stayed, honestly, but if you're going to go, do so quietly and with as little e-drama as possible, because scrolling past your pouting in other topics is more energy than problems like this is worth.

[twobitsmedia]

I've decided since theists are able to insult others, and there is no recourse to such abuse, I will no longer be coming to these forums. I don't care how theists try to twist it, calling someone a fool for their beliefs is an abuse. To not be able to respond in like kind to such abuse is unfair to its core, and I am not going to participate in a debate where one side holds themselves to a different standard of respect than they are willing to afford the other.

Its not about being called a fool so much as it is about what is fair. I used an equal term to fool to describe the Christian belief, and I was chastised, rightly, but there was still no change in the rules. I just can't accept that anyone would be allowed to call my belief 'foolish' while my response is punished.

I met some great folks on these forums, and wish everyone the best in what they seek.

This pretty much voids your so-called apology. Apparently holding contradictory viewpoints simultaneously seems to be a new trend for many atheist debators lately...and, oh yes, it is considered both "logical" and rational." .